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[Cooper]

you have to change your style of play with a bigger box.

Absolutely, Cooper!  Actually, you don't have to, it just helps immensely.  It is of course just a learning problem, not a physical one. (Controversially adding that it is one mainly caused by starting with small boxes in the first place  ).

I am not sure i understand what you are syaing, but if i do understand it, i dont hink i agree. In a lot of styles i think the push-pull-sequences give us the vivid feeling that "belongs" with our melodeon. The bigger the box, the harder it is to get the same bounciness...And i think this IS a physical problem, the size and weight of the box make it harder (sometimes undoable, depending on ones own size and strength) to play the same number of push-pulls.

So assuming that is the style one is after a bigger box will compromise that. If it is not the style you are after, by all means buy a big box (or a pianobox).

Don't get me wrong, i like my 3row18B a lot, and wont go back to 2rows, but i do miss the controll over the bounciness a bit.

W

[AirTime]

My recently acquired 18 bass Handry has a more or less conventional GCF treble layout.  But this is (apparently) the configuration of the 18 basses. Could anyone shed some light on this, please?   

Knee End

Push/Pull

C/F   Bb/Bb   D#/G#

C/F   Bb/Bb   D#/G#

G/C   A/D     F#/C#

G/C   A/Dm   F#/C#

D/G    A/E    B/G#

D/G   Am/E   Bm/G#

Chin End

[Chris Ryall]

For the record, my 12 chords are all tonic+5, Gaillard does a 16 bass all chords, says an 18 with 3rds cannot be done. The right end is a GC, together with an accidentals row based on F# diatonic
 
Eb/Bb     B/Ab       Bb/Eb     feet
chord.    chord.      Ab/B      inner row is bass only

 C/G        F/F          D/C
chord.    chord       F#/F#

 G/D        E/A        C#/C#
chord     chord        A/E       head

In original "Grenoble layout" the B/Ab chord and twin are "other way", but I turned them over as it really opens up Eb for my right end. (Their right end is very different).  Eb has a pull bass, and both simple chords also pull. Eb scale on other end is also all on the pull chez moi  All 12 basses are available both directions, but not the chords

[Chris Brimley]

'Bounciness' comes from changing bellows direction on the beat, I believe.  If you can choose your fingering and bellows directions, you have the opportunity to plan that.  However if you are fixed in your fingering, some of the 'bounce' is going to be in the wrong place.  That to my mind is why the idea that extra weight = sluggishness = lack of dynamics doesn't work as the physics might suggest.  In a jig say, if you have a run of three quavers in the same direction, providing you can emphasise the first note nicely, you will get plenty of attack.

[Chris Ryall]

You can get a lot of dynamics with the fingers, Chris, and I do like your concept of reverse bounce!  But it isn't just that, and is a big reason why the one-row is "a different instument". I know European players who are in awe of the dynamics achieved by the better English style players. There's a certain wildness to it?

[As a retirement project, I'm currently trying to move some of the dynamic concepts of "English style" guitar onto the melodeon. You're an accomplished player of both instruments, what think you on that? (probably needs own thread, though)]

After consulting Chris B I've copied the rhythmic comments to a [link] SEPARATE THREAD as it isn't really about 12/18 bass

[george garside]

to me, best ''bouncyness''   is created by a combination of skilled bellowing and skilled fingering  , each playing its part in achieving the overall effect.

 On a large box  the 'bellowing 'bit is  best achievable if played with the bellows  'tight'  rather than the oft favoured and  occasionaly necessary waving the bellows in the wind.

george

[Chris Brimley]

Can I expand my ideas of playing dynamics on 2+ row boxes a bit?  I've said most of this before on other threads, but that was ages ago.

Playing a box is very complex, because not only do you want to play fast combinations of the right notes, bass and chords in the right place, but also you need to plan the dynamics to best effect for the tune you're performing.  Dynamics come from bellows pressure, by varying bellows pressure, from pushing and pulling off each button at precisely the right moment, by playing different numbers of buttons together, and by adding ornamentation.  And probably a few other things I haven't thought of.  What is more, because you have often different ways available to you to play the same thing, you have to plan how you're going to do it somehow.  And while juggling with all that, you also have to think about the air button, and making sure you don't have too many pushes or pulls so that you run out of air.  And tap your foot in constant time.

Different players have completely different approaches to achieving dynamics in their playing, which makes listening to ToTM recordings very varied and enjoyable.

What I originally set out to do with a DGAcc box was to try to play dance music with the melodic and harmonic variety of a piano accordion, but the dynamics (mainly the 'bounce') of a melodeon, (and I'm certainly still trying!).

What I think many players like about the box is the way a bellows reversal on the beat can give a sound with 'umph' - it's not like say a guitar where you get initial attack which then dies away (though by hitting a button with the fingers you can get a reasonable approximation of that on the higher notes), the maximum amplitude of the sound occurs a fraction of a second after the note starts.  Dance box players learn automatically to compensate a bit by playing the note a fraction early, so that the rhythm to the listener remains constant, and the dancer feels the weight of the beat just as he/she feels it through their feet.

This bounce sound involves bellows emphasis on the beat.  However, off the beat it's not essential, and indeed the combination of attacking first notes and joined together (legato) off-beat ones can be a very effective sound together.  And that's what allows bigger boxes to sound bouncier than you might think by just thinking of the physics of effort and throwing the LH weight around - the first trick is therefore just to bounce on the beat rather than wasting effort off-beat (unless off course you're going for that particular effect, like for example Cajun players.)

Trick 2 is to use the 'airspring' effect.  This means you use the compression and under-compression of the trapped air to help you change bellows direction.  I suggested this effect is particularly useful on the first two bars of Soldier's Joy, for example - you know, the bit that goes 'dubba dubba, dubba dubba,' and is followed by: 'dum, dum, dum'.  If you use just the outside D row to play the dubba notes., it's just VV VV, VV VV.  Now try altering the fingering to use the G row too, to get V^ V^, V^ V^, and you'll be using the airspring.  After a little practice, you will find this clicks, and everything falls into place.  Not only does that transform the tune into something highly danceable, it also makes the basses and chords fit much more precisely, you can play the whole thing much faster and much more easily, and you don't run out of air.  By altering the emphasis of the reversals and the way you play the basses, you can even vary the dynamics still further.  What's not to like? 

Airsprings work in both directions, and sometimes for runs like V^^ V^^ too, for example.

Trick 3 is to plan to use the first two tricks at the right place when you first start to learn the tune, using the RH note reversals and alternative fingerings, and the LH reversible D, A and C chords (where available).  And this is where the art comes in, as well as quite a bit of practice.  You need to think of combinations of LH and RH fingerings all the time, and I start from the LH, to get a smooth bass/chord accompaniment, which I then try to fit a nice, expressive, and easy RH fingering to.

Trick 4 is to annotate your music somehow so that you remember how on earth you did it!  Until you develop finger memory on the tune, you will need that.  I tend to write either the row number or the bellows direction down over the right notes as a mnemonic, depending on the easiest way of jogging the memory for that piece of music.

[Chris Brimley]

Chris, re your question about guitar dynamics and melodeons, I'm not quite sure I'd have enough to say to justify a whole thread - but just the obvious:  dynamics are of course what turn a tune into music, on any instrument.  Acoustic guitars are really quite different from boxes in that you can alter pitch and timbre, and can put in plenty of percussion, but you have less control once you've started playing the note, and you have to do a lot more to put in accompaniment.  The rhythmic and percussive stopping of notes on a guitar in English music is an important technique of which Carthy is a great exponent, and that would be an interesting cross-area to look at.  An awful lot of guitar players stick to one level for everything, and many (but by no means all) acoustic guitars seem designed to be played like that.  However I feel that when you play a guitar, one of the first things to explore is its dynamic range, by playing notes as softly as you can, then as loudly as you can without the sound breaking up - then using that to the full when playing it.  And this is IMO equally true of the box.

Something from the Roland FR18 - I was stunned recently when I started trying the electronic bass effect to realise just how sluggish a reed bass actually is in comparison, and if you can somehow develop a percussive bass sound on a box like a guitar, wow, that would be something!

[Chris Brimley]

Stiamh, the point I was trying to make was that if you have fingering options (as you do on a big DGAcc box, which I think was the OP's interest), you can introduce 'bounce' pretty much as and when you want.  I'm not a semitone box player, but I'm very pleased and interested to hear that it works for you too.  It's way too late for me to jump horses anyway, but your discussion appears to imply that there may be some downsides in the semitone box concept in this respect - or am I reading too much into your post?

[Stiamh]

Chris, yes I think you are looking for profundity in my ramblings that isn't there. (Story of my life...  ) I was being mainly facetious but OTOH I was intrigued that you might think of using reverse bellows in that phrase of Soldier's Joy - especially when you are talking about handling bulkier instruments.

Downsides to semitone boxes? Well yes there have to be some.    You have the reversals, we don't (except for two notes, v. useful though they are). Whereas we have _all_ the notes neatly positioned in just two rows.

[Chris Brimley]

Actually, I'm a bit confused when you and Chris talk about 'reverse' bellows - sure, I meant bellows 'reversals', but they're not backwards in the Cajun sense - to me V means push and ^ pull - I don't know if that's a convention, it's just what I tend to use.

[Chris Ryall]

Think I said "reverse bounce", probably referring, hopefully humourously, to your "bounce in the wrong place". Not been the best of threads for being "spot on" … but otherwise fun and I hope useful to our friend in Ohio

[Cooper]

Can I expand my ideas of playing dynamics on 2+ row boxes a bit?  I've said most of this before on other threads, but that was ages ago.

 I am going to need some time digesting all you said. It's interesting,...but also a lot of words. Any chance you could show what you mean with some movies?

W

[Chris Brimley]

Cooper, I'm afraid I'm not great at videos, probably because my little camera's not up to it, but here's a recording to demonstrate the airspring effect:

https://soundcloud.com/chrisbrimley/airspring-demo

Assume D row notes in black, G row ones in red.  I'm playing this along the row (all push) at first:

A F# D F# A F# D F# D   D   D

Then, using airspring, I'm playing across the rows:

A F# D F# A F# D F# D   D   D

This means playing the following pushes and pulls:  V ^ V ^ V ^ V ^ V   V   V

Hope that's reasonably clear?

[Cooper]

Yes, thx that clarifies exactly what you wanted to say, awesome! I see your point now. My point however isn't contradicted by it. Yes, you can use the crossrows for even more (nice) bellows-reversals, BUT, and this was my point, i find that i can do that just fine with a 2row, and a lot less good with my bulkier 3row18b. I am not sure if it is weight, or size that hampers me, but i am pretty sure that somewhere along the transition from 2r to 3r the "ease of doing that" disappeared with me. Not with you obviously, as it sounds just fine on your DGacc. Perhaps you are a taller/bigger/stronger man than i am?
( i am exaggerating a bit, it's not that i cannot get the effect, it's just a lot more work. I really have to prepare for it whereas on my 2r it's effortless and thoughtless)

W

[Chris Brimley]

Cooper, I think we are in complete agreement!

And just to be completely silly, I thought I would do a short clip of playing this on my 5.5kg 14 bass box at about the fastest sensible speed I could muster.  I am certainly not strong, it just involves a spot of precise timing, and using the airspring to help get a resonant bellows frequency (though that frequency doesn't seem to be all that critical, and you can open out the bellows if you want to make it longer).  Clip attached.

Just to show what I meant about the sine wave pressure effect, I'm also going to in my next post try to attach a screen shot from goldwav of this clip, and you can clearly see the effect from this.

(To any who are maybe unconvinced, I would be delighted to be proved wrong by a clip of along-the-row playing of this tune at this rather silly speed, by the way.  )

Can I try and summarise where we are on this?  Here goes:  Smaller boxes can  have their bellows reversed more quickly than bigger boxes.  Bigger boxes however allow more use of the airspring effect by allowing all sorts of different fingerings, which can give a significant enhancement to dynamic playing techniques, and to some extent this can compensate (or more than compensate) for their additional weight.

(I'd like to just add for the avoidance of any doubt that the example I gave is actually an example of why a two-row could be more dynamic than a one-row, not why a three row could be more dynamic than a two-row, but the principle is just the same.)

[Chris Brimley]

And here's the screenshot referred to.

(Although it's only a cut-down version of one channel, because otherwise the file is too big.)

[Cooper]

And here's the screenshot referred to.

(Although it's only a cut-down version of one channel, because otherwise the file is too big.)

I am not sure,..what did you want me to see/conclude from this graph?

Whatever it is by the way,...you convinced me that you can do it :-) You didnt convince me that the profits you can get from more reversals outweigh the the negative side  being weight and/or size. I have spent quite  bit of time to get this kind of playing on my 3r, whereas, like i said, it is near effortless on my 2r.
W

[Chris Brimley]

It's simply the shape of it, which is so close to a sine wave, and not at all like a sharp attack with steady decay (a sawtooth), as you would get with say an acoustic guitar.  Which to me indicates the oscillation effect that's going on. It would be very interesting to do a study like this for other techniques of playing the box, to see what's going on.

No prob over your outweighing point, btw - all I wanted to do was to set out my basic point, so thanks for letting me have that opportunity.

[Theo]

Another factor that is contributing to the shape of the sound envelope there is that the attack of a reed is inherently slower than a plucked string.   A plucked string starts off immediately with maximum amplitude because the string is displaced before it sounds.  Whereas a free reed starts from zero amplitude and builds up to a maximum.  It would be interesting the see an air pressure graph to compare with the sound envelope.