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Author Topic: Two finger tripplets  (Read 1831 times)

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Boyen

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Two finger tripplets
« on: January 15, 2015, 07:59:11 PM »

Just a topic where I'd like to share my experience (and learning curve) concerning two finger tripplets.
Steve's videos are an excellent graphical presentation of how to do two finger tripplets (His well known youtube channel). However, because I learned three finger tripplets quite early on I have been overlooking the immensely useful two finger tripplets.

Some time ago I started learning the Jig of Slurs/Atholl Highlanders set which is a very frequently played set at the session where I go to. There is however one pesky bit and that would be the fourth part of Jig of Slurs (link to abc)
So at first I would play this part like this:
Same finger
Using the same finger for each consecutive note something like

GBB Bdd dee edB|
122 233 344 432

Which is alright however, when it speeds up I couldn't keep up using this technique. Maybe if I would use the single finger tripplet but I'm afraid I'm not advanced enough for that. What I tried is the three finger tripplet. However I find that it's hard to keep a steady tempo with it when you have three tripplets in a row, also going back to dB at the end of the phrase is harder as your "1" finger is on the high e.

So I taught myself two finger tripplets and I'm really pleased with the result for this phrase:
Two finger tripplets
GBB Bdd dee edB
121 221 232 321

Which for me has some downsides and some upsides:
+ Much easier to speed up
+ I like the sound better, seems more in line with the tradition
+ Tempo is easier to adjust than three finger tripplets
+ Doesn't change your hand position, easy to incorperate in standard fingering
- Tempo is harder to get right than single finger tripplets
- It's easier to mess up..

I think that last two points will not be issues anymore when I get more experiences with them. I've been able to incorperate the technique quite easily in many tunes I already know. Anyway, those are my experiences. Perhaps someone has some advice on this topic as well, for me it was really an "Aha!" moment when I figured out how to tackle this phrase.
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TomBom

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 09:04:33 PM »

Very useful thread!
I am struggling with uneven rhythm when playing repeated notes with the same finger. So I always try to alternate fingers.
For triplets I use two fingers. It's much harder for me to keep a steady tempo with three finger triplets.

So I taught myself two finger tripplets and I'm really pleased with the result for this phrase:
Two finger tripplets
GBB Bdd dee edB
121 221 232 321

Do you really use finger 2 for B and d?

I just tried to play jig of slurs. I would use this fingering:

GBB Bdd dee edB
121 232 121 321


Thomas

By the way: are there any triplets in this jig?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 09:18:04 PM by TomBom »
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gettabettabox

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 09:11:30 PM »

Just a topic where I'd like to share my experience (and learning curve) concerning two finger tripplets.
Steve's videos are an excellent graphical presentation of how to do two finger tripplets (His well known youtube channel). However, because I learned three finger tripplets quite early on I have been overlooking the immensely useful two finger tripplets.

Some time ago I started learning the Jig of Slurs/Atholl Highlanders set which is a very frequently played set at the session where I go to. There is however one pesky bit and that would be the fourth part of Jig of Slurs (link to abc)
So at first I would play this part like this:
Same finger
Using the same finger for each consecutive note something like

GBB Bdd dee edB|
122 233 344 432

Which is alright however, when it speeds up I couldn't keep up using this technique. Maybe if I would use the single finger tripplet but I'm afraid I'm not advanced enough for that. What I tried is the three finger tripplet. However I find that it's hard to keep a steady tempo with it when you have three tripplets in a row, also going back to dB at the end of the phrase is harder as your "1" finger is on the high e.

So I taught myself two finger tripplets and I'm really pleased with the result for this phrase:
Two finger tripplets
GBB Bdd dee edB
121 221 232 321

Which for me has some downsides and some upsides:
+ Much easier to speed up
+ I like the sound better, seems more in line with the tradition
+ Tempo is easier to adjust than three finger tripplets
+ Doesn't change your hand position, easy to incorperate in standard fingering
- Tempo is harder to get right than single finger tripplets
- It's easier to mess up..

I think that last two points will not be issues anymore when I get more experiences with them. I've been able to incorperate the technique quite easily in many tunes I already know. Anyway, those are my experiences. Perhaps someone has some advice on this topic as well, for me it was really an "Aha!" moment when I figured out how to tackle this phrase.

triplets? are you playing these runs with the same time value on each note?
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Boyen

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 10:01:16 PM »

I just tried to play jig of slurs. I would use this fingering:[/font][/font]
GBB Bdd dee edB
121 232 121 321
I have to try that as well. I'm sure I use the fingering that I posted though, that's the one corresponding with the recording.

Quote
By the way: are there any triplets in this jig?
Perhaps my terminiology is off.. I mean the "stutter" where the same note is played three times consecutively.

@gettabettabox, I play them like I play them, I uploaded a sound recording? I wouldn't know the answer to your question. Should I play it differently? I know I can phrase it better but like I said, I still need to get used to the technique.
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Stiamh

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 11:39:13 PM »

Sorry to weigh in with a long rant, but I think you are confusing the issue by using the term "triplets" - and probably confusing the rhythm by thinking of these passages as "stutters".

(In conventional musical terminology, a triplet refers to three notes played in the space of two. It produces a kind of time-bending feel that to all intents and purposes doesn't occur in Irish and Scottish trad music. I won't elaborate here - unless you ask me to!)

When you say "stutter" it gives the impression you are trying to cram the notes in fast - and indeed the "twofingertripplets" clip gives exactly that impression - that you are cramming the notes in _too_ fast, finishing the group, and then having to wait before you play the next group.

The Jig of Slurs is a 6/8 pipe march but for our purposes we can just say it's a jig, and the groups of three notes you are talking about are straight quavers (eighth notes). Well, actually, not straight, ideally - they should have the "internal rhythm" of a jig, to my mind anyway, which is a very difficult thing to describe in words.

All this too say that I think you need to make them sound more relaxed and less rushed. Not "da-da-da (space) da-da-da" sort of thing but "yaa-tuh-dah(no space)yaa-tuh-dah" sort of thing.

Which fingers you do it with is a matter for you to decide. It's true that by alternating fingers you can speed things up to warp speed - but that's not always going to be musical. When I was starting out I got obsessed with swapping fingers, and I still do it a lot, but watching many good players I realized you can do a lot without swapping fingers. As you develop I think you'll find you'll be able to play these passages well without much finger-swapping. Another strategy would be to grace the third repeated note, e.g. GBB {c}Bdd {f}dee etc.

If I were going to swap fingers in that GBB Bdd etc. passage I think I'd use 121 212 121 321, just bringing in the 3 to allow me to climb back downstairs.
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Boyen

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 06:57:33 AM »

If weighing in with long rants isn't possible in "teaching and learning" then you wouldn't be able to do it anywhere Steve. IMO, this is exactly the place for weighing in and long rants.

I will take your advice to heart.

Actually the point you make about tripplets is interesting to me. As when I hear the tune (Jig of Slurs) I hear something much closer to:
G BB dd ee dB
http://youtu.be/bBdM1VAN2RA?t=47s

And what I play is exactly that but with a note in between (which is apparently not correct).
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 09:14:59 AM »

Abolutely! I may not agree with long rants, but will defend to the death your right to make them ;) and Yes, guilty too!

Don't quite agree with this one, but am not a great tripletter either. I put a few triplets in various tunes as points of emphasis, one is a morris dance; a polska I do actually has a quadruplet 8)

I don't think it much matters how you do them - provided you achieve the trick. I seem to use three fingers on an inner row, loads of space, two on the others to avoid mis hits. In every case it is a practiced embelishment, I can't do it reliably on a random button. Though I guess that should be an aim?

To prove just how much variation there is, Pignol does triplets in Breton Rondo's with one finger! I've also seen Andy Cutting demo this, albeit not recently. If you can handle that you can perhaps handle anything.

Ready to be shot down in flames, this is a 'non Celtic' perspective. :|glug
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george garside

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 09:56:42 AM »

Short rant! triplets can be played with one, two or three fingers  and it is sensible to be able  so to do.     You can then, hopefully intuitively, use the best/easiest method for  a particular bit of a particular tune.

It is also worth remembering that a  single note triplet can be played as one longer note or a longer note can be played as a triplet and that swapping around a bit can add a little variation if playing through several times.

end of short rant

george ;)
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gettabettabox

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 10:35:15 AM »

I just tried to play jig of slurs. I would use this fingering:[/font][/font]
GBB Bdd dee edB
121 232 121 321
I have to try that as well. I'm sure I use the fingering that I posted though, that's the one corresponding with the recording.

Quote
By the way: are there any triplets in this jig?
Perhaps my terminiology is off.. I mean the "stutter" where the same note is played three times consecutively.

@gettabettabox, I play them like I play them, I uploaded a sound recording? I wouldn't know the answer to your question. Should I play it differently? I know I can phrase it better but like I said, I still need to get used to the technique.

hi boyen, no criticism intended. this is after all, the jig of slurs...so scope for interpretation?!!
my earlier post was just to clarify.
this particular phase of the tune is very stacatto, but checking your abc, i think the basic jig rhythm as suggested above by steve, is still required. a quick 'tap' or 'dip' note between the last two quavers of each three might enhance?
i still struggle with same note triplets, that's because i don't like them!
keep on playing what sounds right to ya'   (:)
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LDbosca

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 11:42:15 AM »

To emphasize what others have said, a cut/grace note above the note is really needed to make it sound musical - you'll almost never find three repeated notes like that in Irish music without some sort of decoration to break it up.

So: GBB (d)Bdd (e)dee etc - grace note is in brackets. It comes before the third of the repeated notes because these are on the strong beat.

Stiamh

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Re: Two finger triplets
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 12:49:13 PM »

@Chris and George, it ought to be pretty clear, given the notation and the recorded clips that Boyen gave, that we are not talking about triplets aka trebles aka stutters at all.

@Boyen, regarding the jig/march rhythm, it's all down to who you listen to, I guess. The style of the fiddler in your clip is not something I would aspire to meself.

However... (shooting down my own argument here) I went looking for a GHB interpretation on YT and found this tutorial clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMorzXXyKbw&feature=youtu.be&t=2m27s

The instructor says later on that you (or rather, GHB players) want a straight 1-2-3 rhythm in this tune and NOT a oooone-two-three march rhythm!

So maybe the interpretation of your grinning braveheart wallah isn't so bad after all. So gettabettabox's advice to carry on with what sounds right to you is spot-on.

But if you want to carry the technique over to Irish jigs, I wouldn't recommend that rhythm. In which case Luke's advice would be spot-on.

BTW the "slurs" in the title of the tune refer to a highland bagpipe ornament|articulation device similar if I am not mistaken to the "strike" or "tap" of Irish fluters, whistlers and pipers.
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Boyen

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 01:17:41 PM »

@Steve I actually have no clue what a Jig rythm is (Actually I sort of do but don't use it when I play). I just listen to music and then try to recreate what I hear.

What I will do however, since I can replicate the sound from that clip, is try out all the suggestions that have been given and see what I like the sound of. In the end I want to play something that is the most pleasing to my ears  :||:

Thanks for all the advice, this place never lets me down :)
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 01:40:59 PM »

Wasn't clear Stiombh' but never mind. I've just watched the first couple of videos (and am still not clear!) …  but would like to congratulate you on two  of the best deconstructs of the mysteries of Irish reels on the Internet. I'm tempted (:)
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Vector

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Re: Two finger tripplets
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 04:06:38 PM »

good trick for Jig of slurs (known as jig of ethnophaulisms here in my area) - I always crash out at that point in the 4th section - going to give your idea a try!

as far as stutters go, I have seen players use the 2 finger triplet dance, but I find the 3 finger triplet brush easier -
probably the 2 finger method is more accurate -
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