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Author Topic: Different ways of learning  (Read 5313 times)

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Bob Ellis

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2015, 03:12:30 PM »

For those attending the Melodeon Playgroup next month, there will be practical examples in my workshop on ornamenting tunes of what Squeezy has been advocating with regard to crossing the rows to play phrases in the opposite direction in order to use different basses.
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Jules0654

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2015, 06:25:03 PM »

For those attending the Melodeon Playgroup next month, there will be practical examples in my workshop on ornamenting tunes of what Squeezy has been advocating with regard to crossing the rows to play phrases in the opposite direction in order to use different basses.
I'm very much looking forward to this particular workshop!
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Howard Jones

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2015, 11:50:16 AM »

I have just a slight worry about the idea of learning a tune "the right way".

I agree.  The melodeon offers so many alternative ways of playing the same phrase that there can be no one "right way" to play a tune.  If you go to any session with more than one melodeon player the chances are their bellows are moving in different directions at times, indicating that they are playing something quite different. 

Learning a tune involves deconstructing it and deciding phrase by phrase how you want to play it.  The choices you make will be partly musical and partly governed by your own ability.  Over time, as your playing improves or as you come up with new ideas, or simply through playing with different people, you may find your approach to the tune evolves into something different. If you come to play with other musicians, especially ones with more chromatic instruments who want to play fancy chords we don't have, you may have re-adjust your playing to fit in.

With experience, you build up a mental library of alternative fingerings which makes it much easier to try things out on the fly.  Even so, there are some phrases which you just have to sit down and work through until you find something which works for you.

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2015, 12:20:28 PM »

I suspect it was me who introduced the idea of a 'right way'.
I totally agree there really is no correct way, only your way.
What I was trying to say was that if you have a given tune from a composer who plays it as they perceive the tune to be ( and I like that way )  then I like to try and get as close to that idea.
It allows me to try and 'get' their idea and learn from it. As I then play it, perhaps I like to play it slightly differently, so making it my way.

When I look at a tune in some of the tune books I possess I immediately change their suggested chords as they don't sound right to me, or gives me the wrong feel to the tune. I'm not precious about changing them to what feels right for me.

Other tunesmiths seem, for me, to get it spot on and those I like to replicate as close to their way as possible. These might change later though.....  but perhaps I like their idea and want to live with it for a while.

I'm not sure if I've explained my ideas or merely muddied the waters again!
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2015, 11:39:24 AM »

Perhaps I'm muddling two threads currently running at present.

In the ToTM there's been comments about a tune engine version of a tune and what's a 'right' version or not.

Anahata has put in this reply
Quote:
" Whereas "going with the majority" [ the way a tune's often played at sessions Q ] makes for an easy life,
- It's always worth doing the research to find an "original" version, even if you don't end up playing it that way.
- If it's a recent composition, composer still alive, there's a stronger case for getting to know the original and trying to keep to the composer's intentions unless limitations of the instrument make that impossible...."

I think it's appropriate to quote it here.
The last comment in particular sums up what I was trying to say very well.
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

pikey

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2015, 12:39:14 PM »

I learn a tune in my head first. When I find I can hum the tune all the way through from memory, I try it on the box , using both bass and treble ends. I then find the 'sticky' bits ie the odd turn that some tunes have, and practise just that bit over and over until it sticks.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:24:46 AM by Theo »
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Ebor_fiddler

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2015, 11:47:35 PM »

I work the same way as Pikey, surprisingly enough!  :||: I also find that it's not a way peculiar to a particular instrument. I have (almost} learned Ragtime Annie on the box,  :Ph when I heard it played on fiddle by the Hot Club of Cow Town and thought (big-headedly) "I could do that" and lo and behold, when the tune came up at our Friday session, I picked up the fiddle rather than my box and played it straight off.  :o I had thought that I would need to learn it all over again for another instrument - after all your fingers are doing different jobs aren't they?  :neigh:
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MelonBox

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2015, 05:42:45 PM »

I like this thread! It's rare that I come onto melnet these days as I feel I don't have the time to sit and scan through the interesting threads. However today is different and I thought I'd stick my head into this conversation and have a listen and offer my tuppence. (Its also a new year's resolution for me to give back to this wonderful community which has given me sooo much good publicity over the last 12 months)

Something which has been mentioned already is playing about with the music not just playing it. Learning and re-learning tunes should be part of the fun of the process, in my opinion. Yes, the frustration 'should' be 'fun'. We're all a bit loopy for picking up such a tricky instrument in the first place so don't just find the easiest way through a 'problem' - find lots of ways through it.

Its certainly something I try to get across to my students. In fact, a lot of students who start with me say that they have spent a lot of time accumulating tunes, learning them and then moving on. Often, one of the reasons they want lessons is to have help going back over tunes, exploring what they've missed along the way.

I never proffer to know everything (no one does at the end of the day!), but I can certainly scratch my creative bone and get something out of most tunes that are thrown in my direction (YES, even Winster Gallop and Speed The Plough - the fun is limitless! *remembers Squeezy's STP workshop at Oxford FF 2007*)

To me, just making some noises on the box can be educational. Learning where sounds are, how they make you feel - what story does an Em tell as opposed to a G? Making a decision to use that particular bass because it gives a lift or a different feeling to that part of the tune. That's vital knowledge to me, and certainly how I've taught myself from the beginning, even if I didn't know that's what I was doing in the first place (and my uni housemates just thought I was being a noisy bastard).

So, to conclude my ramblings:
1. HAVE FUN WITH IT - the process, the journey and the outcome
2. EXPLORE the sounds of you box, and enjoy that too. Where are they? What direction? Where are they the same?
3. MAKE A DECISION -I think once you've done the exploring bit, make a decision to play a tune THAT way because YOU like it like that. Don't just let your fingers wander off and do whatever the hell they please!
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2015, 12:39:27 AM »


So, to conclude my ramblings:
1. HAVE FUN WITH IT - the process, the journey and the outcome
2. EXPLORE the sounds of you box, and enjoy that too. Where are they? What direction? Where are they the same?
3. MAKE A DECISION -I think once you've done the exploring bit, make a decision to play a tune THAT way because YOU like it like that. Don't just let your fingers wander off and do whatever the hell they please!

1. Yes, totally agree.
If we're not having fun, summat's up. Having fun doesn't mean that we're not working, neither does working hard on a tune preclude having fun with it.

2. Yes - totally agree again.

3. Mostly agree with this. However, after a while it can be beneficial to 'let your fingers wander off' after you've got the basic decision nailed down. That's the way new inspiration and fresh ideas come about. We should always be open to new ways of doing things.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2015, 02:14:46 AM »

Going back to the earlier comments - there are different levels of tunes and different requirements for their performance.  Most Morris tunes are played pretty straight and the dancers often don't appreciate any nouvelle cuisine in the accompaniment, so it's often a learning by ear and three chord trick affair.  It takes some genius to play outside that box and get away with it. 

Session tunes tend to be popular because they have a hook in the melody and are more complex so can bear a bit or a lot of variation (anyone else remember Simon Care playing a different rhythm and chord structure in each measure of a ceilidh dance?).

Once you get to modern and often complex compositions such as Andy Cutting's, I think you do have to work out the hands together and learn it by rote!  Much more difficult to do by ear!  There are many levels to this but these are my three main categories.

Rob.
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george garside

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2015, 11:38:13 AM »

My 'threepenneth'  would be   that once you have got the right notes in the right order   :

- experiment  eg on row, cross row, rhythmic bass, long bass chords, gaps in bass,no bass!, i.e just         
  'where to do what'

- Listen continuously and in detail to what is coming out of the box - is it really the same as you think  you are putting in!
 
-  get the hang of phrasing  tunes, playing the gaps etc and of varying the volume (dynamics) to make it sound more interesting  .  Phrasing and dynamics give character to a tune and yes as Mel has indicated do it to Winster Gallop !!

george
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MelonBox

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2015, 11:43:09 AM »


3. Mostly agree with this. However, after a while it can be beneficial to 'let your fingers wander off' after you've got the basic decision nailed down. That's the way new inspiration and fresh ideas come about. We should always be open to new ways of doing things.


Yes you're absolutely right there Steve! Didn't mean my point to be an absolute final (although that is how it comes across I agree) I was merely suggesting it's a good idea to make a decision on what you like and trying to tie that down in the fingers, until those moments where the fingers do something unexpected and leave you with a "happy accident"! (And "Hey" by the way! Very much looking forward to meeting you at M&M. I've heard so many great things!)


- Listen continuously and in detail to what is coming out of the box - is it really the same as you think  you are putting in!
 
-  get the hang of phrasing  tunes, playing the gaps etc and of varying the volume (dynamics) to make it sound more interesting  .  Phrasing and dynamics give character to a tune and yes as Mel has indicated do it to Winster Gallop !!

george


Really good points too. Playing by ear (although not entirely the point of this thread but worthwhile saying I feel) isn't just learning a tune without sheet music. Its about getting to grips with the sound of YOUR instrument. Everyone's is different, and your 'sensory relationship' with it is unique and individual. So get to know it! Spend time loving it, and making lots of nice, and not so nice sounds on it. Learn what you like and don't like. All this happens through listening, quite intensely actually. You'll learn loads about your instrument just through this process alone.

George makes a really good point about dynamics and phrasing - two things which interweave with each other. In one of my exercises, I try to get my students to play as quietly as they can. Just getting the reeds to breathe a hiss of a note. It's quite staggering what you can get out of most boxes with just a teensy squeeze of the bellows! Really good for learning what you can get away with on your instrument, 'air economy' and not waking the neighbuors.

Loving this thread, but apologies if my comments are taking it away from the main conversation. All good points to be said, but possibly in the wrong place! #newatthis
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:58:02 AM by MelonBox »
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2015, 02:15:54 PM »

Excellent advice from Mel, Steve and George, as one would expect. I would just add a couple of points that can help to develop more expressive and varied playing.

Singing, whistling or humming a tune is a good way of experimenting with different ways of expressing and ornamenting it. Most of us have more instinctive and subtle control over our vocal chords than over our free reed instruments, so we can use our vocal chords to developing ways of expressing a tune and then try to replicate them on our melodeons.

Discussion is taking place in another thread about the value of receiving critiques of our playing. It is worth bearing in mind that we are often our own most effective critics because we know what we are trying to achieve. However, we don't always recognise when and why we are failing to meet our high expectations. One reason for this is that we are concentrating more on playing the tune than on listening to how we are playing it. Recording ourselves and then watching and listening to the playback is a good way of identifying faults and of discovering ways in which we can improve our interpretation of the music we are playing.
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george garside

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Re: Different ways of learning
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2015, 04:32:15 PM »

[ ]
  . One reason for this is that we are concentrating more on playing the tune than on listening to  how  we are playing it. 

Ear Ear!

george ;D
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