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[bb23]

Has anyone here tried the Guens student model hybrid bandoneon? It's the c system based free reed thingy. If anyone's played one of these, I'd be interested in a brief review. Thanks.

[oggiesnr]

It's not a bandoneon.  If you want the bandoneon experience buy one second hand.

It's basically a C system accordion stretched over two hands, unisonoric, made in China and it is what it is.  Quality isn't bad, isn't great, again think Chinese melodeons.

Personal opinion is that in the Chinese version they are pointless.  Now if you're prepared to pay the price for the handmade version and you get on with C system then maybe.  However for that sort of money you could get a Pigini freebass which is several times the instrument.

Steve

PS For the price of the handmade version you could buy either a new "proper" bandoneon or an Alfred Arnold AA142/4 in good condition.

[Atzarin]

I used a Geuns mini hybrid as the first prototype of the Atzarin bandonion. Everything about it was exactly the same, but for the layout which I had modified to my specs.

Physically the build quality is fairly robust and good enough for the price, except for the ease with which the screw-on buttons can come off. In fact, not only come off, but break on the neck on the underside, where it screws onto the rod, as a result of a slight knock.

When I took it to a local accordion repairer he was pleasantly surprised by the overall quality, bearing in mind the price and the fact that it is Chinese made. He actually opened up the bellows and sniffed them several times. He then told me that the quality of the glue that had been used was better than he would have expected for a Chinese instrument.

To my surprise, the accordion repairer mentioned above, who plays CBA, said he liked the ergonomics of the buttons on the front. I noticed, however, that when he was commenting on how comfortable it was, he was sitting cross legged, with the instrument on his thigh tilting towards him! Not how the instrument is supposed to be used at all! In contrast, when I took it to a professional Trikitixa player to try out, he was shocked at how far forward the buttons are and how uncomfortable it felt to him.

The ergonomics of the design, and the consequences on holding the instrument and being able to play certain chords or using the thumb, is my biggest issue with it. Forget abut being able to play the really broad chords that are typical of traditional bandoneon on one hand with just 4 finger technique! You can read more the issue of ergonomics of this particular kind of hybrid bandonion and how it affects the stability of the instrument and playing technique at:

http://atzarin.com/eng/instruments/bandonion/atzarin_bandonion_development_stage_1.html

The accordion type reeds do not really sound like a bandonion, but they are effective nonetheless. I have seen one used to great effect by a professional classical musician in a Piazzolla concert here in Bilbao. The octave tuning means that it doesn't sound like an accordion either!

By the way, the instrument is no longer available, until further notice, so if you want to buy one, it'll have to be second hand, I think.

[Chris Ryall]

Any here know of a good "basic technique" web page on bandonèon - I'm getting my first one next week. TIA

[Atzarin]

The problem, generally, is finding information in English. If you understand Spanish, I could recommend other sources. If you've already done a search, you'll have come across this article:

http://www.inorg.chem.ethz.ch/tango/band/shalev/Bandoneon_Technique.pdf

I strongly recommend it. Are you getting a traditional bandoneon with Reihnische layout, as used in Argentina? Julian Rowlands, a UK professional bandoneonist, once pointed out to me in an exchange on the bandoneon group at Yahoo that although the keyboards are notoriously difficult to learn, the most difficult thing to master was posture, in particular, and technique. He was firstly a violinist and said that the violin is notorious for the postural problems it gives learners. However, he said that violin posture was "a walk in the park" compared to bandoneon posture!

At that time, I was in the early stages of practice on my own Atzarin bandonion and was concentrating more on design aspects of the instrument than on actually playing it. I was surprised by his comments, as I love the fact that, unlike the accordion and large squeezeboxes, it is not strapped to the body. However, despite this freedom, in the early stages of practice, and even nowadays, I get back ache. Another problem to beware of is tendinitis in the shoulders, though this may be something to do with using the mini hybrid at the time, which has the buttons at the front of the instrument and causes, in my opinion, excessive rounding of the shoulders.

So, this issue of posture and technique, is what leads me  to strongly recommend the article above.

By the way, although the article does talk about the importance of keeping the ends of the instrument off your legs, it may not come across as so important from the way it is written. Make sure you do not rest the ends of the instrument on your thighs, but just off them, otherwise the sound will be drowned into your trousers! It does make quite a difference. Sometimes, when playing 3 or 4 note chords on the left hand and only single notes in the melody on the right hand, you might want to deliberately muffle the left hand slightly by keeping the end on your leg.

Another very important aspect to get right from the outset is the position and use of your legs. The above linked article covers this very well.

Make sure you check out The Bandoneon Page:

http://www.inorg.chem.ethz.ch/tango/band/bandoneon.html

Let us know how you get on!

[oggiesnr]

Any here know of a good "basic technique" web page on bandonèon - I'm getting my first one next week. TIA

For basic posture this is as good a primer as it gets (it's also great music) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt-rs3mlTGk

Note that when he's playing right hand only that he grips very strongly round the straps on the left hand.

What music are you wanting to play?

Steve

[bb23]

Chris,

I'm curious - are you going with a bisonoric rheinische tonlage layout?

[Atzarin]

For basic posture this is as good a primer as it gets (it's also great music) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt-rs3mlTGk

That is certainly not basic posture, but very advanced posture. Astor Piazzolla was a master at playing standing up, but it is in fact much more difficult than playing sitting down. Teachers, in my experience, do not encourage playing standing up.

Notice that long passages on the pull are very difficult because the hands have to drop so much. Not a problem if you have orangutang-like arms or if you only have to open towards one side, which is very often what you can see Pizzolla doing in the video, playing with just one hand on one end, which is kept stationary while the other hand is used not for playing, but for operating the bellows.

To play the instrument over just one leg with both hands, on both the pull and the push, requires complete mastery of the instrument, particularly the air valve, so that passages between bellows reversals or bellows expulsions i.e. emptying the bellows to begin another passage opening, are kept short.

[Chris Ryall]

Chris,  I'm curious - are you going with a bisonoric rheinische tonlage layout?

I have no bloody clue, and frankly am as curious as you This is a complete fling musically. Moreover I am immediately off to Lyon on the train - so won't really get my mits on it for over a week

Those pages look useful, thanks. I have previously broken both shoulders and virtually alway play seated, also on pull anyway (as a Pignol protegé) Also btw, a previous-life organic chemist; makes your posted website seem even more Faustian from my perspective  How does he do it? You could spot our inorganic chemists in my old Lab by their missing fingers!

[edit] Jeez! What a resource

[bb23]

I have no bloody clue, and frankly am as curious as you

Brave man! I'll be curious to hear updates when you get your hands on the thing...

[Atzarin]

Bb23, Oggiesnr and Chris, how are you all getting on with your respective instruments, hybrid bandonion and possibly trad bandoneon in Rheinische layout? What kind of layout was it int the end, Chris? This thread was started more than a year ago and ended with bb23 looking forward to updates from Chris when he got his hands on the instrument.

Another thing discussed was bandoneon technique. Here is a link to my first YouTube video of my beginner's attempt at Over the Rainbow on the Atzarin bandonion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2HPoTuidL4

I deliberately play over just one leg and then bring it onto both legs towards the end and switch it onto the other leg at the very end. All very normal in trad bando technique and easy on Atzarin bandonion but not at all easy on a hybrid.

What about the rest of you? I'd love to hear how you're getting on.

[oggiesnr]

It's interesting to see the different approaches to a bandoneon. 

I come to it from concertina and melodeon and I use it for British folk music and accompanying songs.  In this context I'm more interested in the left hand as a source of counter melodies and some chording rather than the straight chording which is nearer the Polish Chemnitzer concertina tradition.

I've always had a problem with dissociating my hands, ie my left responds instinctively to my right, and this limits me.  Julian Rowlands is also a piano player and this transfers directly to bandoneon.  He plays it much more like you would a piano with the hands able to work independently.  On a traditional bandoneon there is also a sonic difference in the voices of the note left to right and there is, in some keys, an octave overlap between hands so playing left hand melodies sounds different to playing it in the right hand.  That's without getting into the further complications of playing just on the draw 

Given that I would use my bisonoric box very differently to the way you play "Over the Rainbow".  When I get through my summer season I'll try and record a version so you see what I mean.

Steve

[Atzarin]

Steve, interesting comments about the sonic difference between voices on the left and right hand sides of the bandoneon.

For those who are not aware, the reeds on the the left hand of a traditional bandoneon are "standing" perpendicular to the keyboard, whereas on the right hand, which uses shorter reeds, 1 of the 2 reeds that sound for each tone is laid flat, in parallel with the keyboard, and the longer reeds are "standing". This explains the difference in sound not only between voices on the left and right hand sides of the bandoneon but also the differences between the same note played on the push or on the pull on the right hand side.

The above is also true of the Atzarin bandonion, which uses long zinc reed plates set up in the same way as on a traditional bandoneon. It is also bisonoric. However, because nearly all notes are available in both directions of the bellows, the air valve is used much less than on a traditional bandoneon and there is no special preference for playing on the draw, except perhaps to do easy staccato chops, dropping the knee at the same time. The Atzarin bandonion and also has an overlap of just over an octave between left and right, from "f#" below "middle c" to "b" above "middle c".

I'm currently working on a Tango, Recuerdos de Bohemia, arranged by Maximo Mori,  which has a good mix of chords and melody in the right hand. Should be presentable in the summer or just after. Another one I'm working on to practice counter melodies is a Polonaise by Bach.

It'd would be great if you could record a version of "Over the Rainbow" on your bandoneon.

[Rob2Hook]

I thought the main reason for the different itmbre between LH and RH is that the LH has a cassotto chamber.  Mind you, my instrument - which I have never got to grips with - is a Chemnitz Concertina, but the basic construction is the same.

Rob.

[Atzarin]

No, there is NO cassotto chamber on either hand of a bandoneon, be it the kind used in Argentina, Einsheit, C-grip, hybrid or Atzarin.

Nor is there one in Chemnitzers. So if your Chemnitzer has got cassotto, that's highly unusual. It'd be great to see some photos!

Cassotto chambers are found are on some expensive accordions and add further complexity to an already complex construction by having some of the multiple reeds that sound for the same tone/note inside a chamber.