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Author Topic: FLAT OR SHARP!  (Read 6450 times)

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alan_p

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FLAT OR SHARP!
« on: March 09, 2015, 02:16:36 PM »

Hi I`m Alan from Essex,
A little question, music theory rather than melodeon oriented.
Why if B flat is the same note as A sharp do we have sharps & flats. Why not have an A sharp scale etc.?
Alan
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brazilian.BOX

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2015, 02:28:39 PM »

I believe this double notation is relate with the music reading. The flat notes is to indicate half tone AHEAD... and the sharp notes is to indicate half tone BEHIND (coming back).
Some of the scores in the paper when you are reading music, all of that is interpreted considering it... one flat symbol # in the papel can change everything you are reading, also the sharp symbol b can do the same. And so, I believe sometimes is better using one or another to ease the execution of the melody. Sometimes will be more comfortable interpret the song you are reading considering the movement BACK in the scale (using lots of sharp notes), sometime will be more comfortable do the same doing the movement AHEAD (using the flat notes).

It can be an interesting debate between the people that READ MUSIC very well.
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The Brazilian chromatic tuning: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwLF1tH3q5Y

Lester

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2015, 02:32:14 PM »

The way I understand it is all keys have all the note names in them

C Major - C, D, E, F, G, A, B
G Major - G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

But if we only use sharps F Major would come out thus

F Major - F, G, A, A#, C, D, E

So we use the flat in this (and other cases)

F Major - F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E

Boyen

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2015, 02:43:48 PM »

They are not actually the same note, they are however played the same in many modern instruments and additionally they have a large overlap and they are the same in Equal Temperament tuning due to this overlap.

When I had the same question I read through this entire topic which gave me some answers: http://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/comments/1h176q/faq_question_what_is_the_difference_between/
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deltasalmon

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2015, 02:45:57 PM »

The way I understand it is all keys have all the note names in them

C Major - C, D, E, F, G, A, B
G Major - G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

But if we only use sharps F Major would come out thus

F Major - F, G, A, A#, C, D, E

So we use the flat in this (and other cases)

F Major - F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E

This adds a lot more work in notation too. In the F major example above you can put a (b) sign in the beginning of the line and that assumes that all B's are flat. If you use the A, A# then every time you play the note you'll have to switch the sign to A natural or sharp.

Not only for standard notation this would be the same in ABC notation as well.
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Sean McGinnis
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TomB-R

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2015, 02:58:07 PM »

Thanks Lester, that "all the note names" explanation is very clear and makes good sense.
So there really is no such scale as D# !!!  :-[
(It would include D and D#)
Tom
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Sebastian

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2015, 03:12:30 PM »

Why if B flat is the same note as A sharp do we have sharps & flats. Why not have an A sharp scale etc.?
As Lester sayed.

Western music has seven different notes: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. (That is an heritage from greek antiquity, scrambled a bit through distortions of transmission.) Later the alterations where added and incorporated into the already existing heptatonal system. Hence some inconsistencies.

You can have an A#-scale, if you want to. Why not? But there is no advantage to a Bb-scale and if you want others to play your music, you shouldn't bother them more than necessary. (When writing counterpoint some years ago I went into something like C# major. My teacher without further ado corrected it to Db major. ;D )

Thanks Lester, that "all the note names" explanation is very clear and makes good sense.
So there really is no such scale as D# !!!  :-[
(It would include D and D#)
Tom
Of course there is a D#-major scale:

D# E# F## G# A# B# C##

There is no D in a D#-major scale.

(I don't know how you call F## and C## in english. In german they are 'Fisis' and 'Cisis'.)
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Lester

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2015, 03:14:39 PM »

Thanks Lester, that "all the note names" explanation is very clear and makes good sense.
So there really is no such scale as D# !!!  :-[
(It would include D and D#)
Tom
https://www.basicmusictheory.com/d-sharp-major-scale

TomB-R

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2015, 03:30:43 PM »

Thanks Lester, that "all the note names" explanation is very clear and makes good sense.
So there really is no such scale as D# !!!  :-[
(It would include D and D#)
Tom
https://www.basicmusictheory.com/d-sharp-major-scale
Where it says "Warning: The D-sharp key is a theoretical major scale key." Double-sharps - no thanks!
A four voice D/D# Amatona is too heavy to be half-theoretical! Maybe it needs to be a D/Eb. (E flat/knee flat!)  :o

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2015, 06:23:27 PM »

I don't know how you call F## and C## in english. In german they are 'Fisis' and 'Cisis'.
In English we say "F double-sharp" and "C double-sharp"
We also use the same for the double flats too, e.g. "B double-flat"
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Steve
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triskel

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2015, 06:47:34 PM »

Where it says "Warning: The D-sharp key is a theoretical major scale key." Double-sharps - no thanks!
A four voice D/D# Amatona is too heavy to be half-theoretical! Maybe it needs to be a D/Eb. (E flat/knee flat!)  :o

There ain't nothin' "theoretical" about the D# row on my box either Tom, though I'd say a 3-voice Paolo Soprani D/D# is probably a good bit handier than a 4-voice Amatona one...  ;)

gettabettabox

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2015, 07:40:21 PM »

E flat or D sharp...don't matter much.
however, it has been said, that if you are fortunate enough in life to possess a 3v paolo in D/D+, then you should relinquish all other accordions. it's all about karma.
i can help you by taking your paolo single row in D?   (:)
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triskel

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2015, 08:34:52 PM »

... it has been said, that if you are fortunate enough in life to possess a 3v paolo in D/D+, then you should relinquish all other accordions. it's all about karma.
i can help you by taking your paolo single row in D?   (:)

gettoffoutoffit!   ;) ;D :D

1953-54 Paolo Soprani 10-key "pepperpot"

But if you'ld genuinely like to get one, it looks like Scott still has a red one for sale - Red Paolo Soprani Pepperpot, key of D - so you don't need to lust after mine...  :P

911377brian

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2015, 09:43:58 PM »

Got quite a shock watching your 'full three minutes' Triskel; I had always assumed that you were at best middle aged after learning so much from you amazing fund of knowledge....it was you playing was'nt it?
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triskel

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2015, 10:29:43 PM »

... Triskel; I had always assumed that you were at best middle aged after learning so much from you amazing fund of knowledge....it was you playing was'nt it?

Well beyond middle-aged Brian, more like "past my sell-by" in fact!  ::)

If you'd read the blurb on the video you'ld have seen it was Conor Connolly having a go on it, and giving the box a good "road test" (he's a lovely young player, in the old style) - I'm the one you can't see, because I'm behind the camera...

squeezy

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2015, 11:16:45 PM »

In answer to the OP - I'm afraid it really is far more complicated than I can explain satisfactorily in one post ... sorry!

In the modern days of equal temperament D# is equal in pitch to Eb and Bb is equal in pitch to A# ... but in terms of harmony that is a travesty that has removed nice pure chords from existence in western music.  In the old days scales were set such that intervals sounded nicer (within the same key) ... but chromaticism was impossible - and in those days A# and Bb were indeed different by a small amount.

So the answer to your question is that the use of different terms for Bb and A# nowadays are just academic ... it teaches us a lot about the history of where our music comes from ... and if you've ever heard a box tuned in perfect intonation for one major key then you'll know that modern equal temperament is not a good solution for harmony - simply a good solution for 12 note chromaticism.
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Squeezy

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triskel

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2015, 11:53:34 PM »

In the modern days of equal temperament D# is equal in pitch to Eb and Bb is equal in pitch to A# ... but in terms of harmony that is a travesty that has removed nice pure chords from existence in western music.  In the old days scales were set such that intervals sounded nicer (within the same key) ... but chromaticism was impossible ...

It sounds like you might be familiar with How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care squeezy? It's a fascinating book that I picked up on my American travels a few years ago, which immediately got borrowed and devoured in a couple of days by a musician in Seattle.

Quote
... in those days A# and Bb were indeed different by a small amount.

I've tuned a number of concertinas to meantone intonation over the years, in fact the English system concertina was designed for it! It requires dedicated buttons/reeds especially for both G# and Ab, and also D# and Eb, which would otherwise be jarring "wolf" notes when played in the wrong keys, and the difference between those notes, in that temperament, is in the region of half a semitone...  :o

Sebastian

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2015, 02:51:51 AM »

In the modern days of equal temperament D# is equal in pitch to Eb and Bb is equal in pitch to A# ... but in terms of harmony that is a travesty that has removed nice pure chords from existence in western music.  In the old days scales were set such that intervals sounded nicer (within the same key) ... but chromaticism was impossible - and in those days A# and Bb were indeed different by a small amount.
Well, certainly it's not wrong what you write. But – when were those "old days" you write about? Which century do you think of? In the days before temperated tunings became used composers simply didn't use A#. When you analyse the real music, you will see that not every alteration was used. Bb was very common (in fact Bb was the first "alterated" note in western tradition), but A# was definitely not. And when (very sparingly) A# was used, it was used as a really special note in extreme situations. More extreme alterations (such as A#) became used one by one over longer periods of time. (Even though the theoretical fundamentation existed for centuries and was part of elementary musical education, cp. e. g. Boethii De institutione musica, lib. I, xvi.)

It is correct that the modern "equal temperament" has de-tuned every single note of the scale by a small amount. But do you believe that in those "old days" every instrument was always so perfectly tuned as they should be? I play the organ and, trust me, most organs here are never really in tune with themselves. I remember trying to play the great glory at easter vigil in a small village church but it was nearly impossible to get a full sound because most ranks were incongruously out of tune one to another. I doubt that the situation was better some centuries ago. Another example: A friend of mine has measured the distances between frets on many old zithers in museums. These instruments where real "folk instruments". (In his book he published the results for 44 instruments.) He concluded that the distances – and consequently the intonations – were often more or less 'rustic'.

Another phenomenon which should not be underestimated is the willingness of the ear/brain to clean up small inconsistencies in tuning and to reduce the physical sounds to the correct notes.

Quote
So the answer to your question is that the use of different terms for Bb and A# nowadays are just academic
I am not sure that I understand this correctly. B and A represent different pitches ("Tonstufen"). Bb is just an alterated version of B, A# is just an alterated version of A. But basically they represent the different pitches B and A. In western tonal music (all folk music, all popular music, …) you have always a tonal centre/fundamental note. Bb and A# represent different steps in the scale and different intervalls to the tonal centre in the context of functional harmony. (In tonal music there are no 'absolut' pitches, but only relations to the tonal centre. Bb has another relation to it than A#.) So even if Bb and A# may be represented by the same frequency, they are discriminable pitches with quite different relations in the melodic-harmonic context.

An example: The third note in the scale of C# is E#. F would be the fourth.

A friend of mine some days ago faced the problem that there is no musical context which would allow to write the sequence Eb C B E# Eb E (which was desired to make a 'readable' motive à la B-A-C-H), but that it had to be D# C B F D# E (in the given context):



So, the difference is not "just academic".  (:)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 03:14:21 AM by Sebastian »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2015, 08:30:02 AM »

It gets even more complex in improvisation. We tend to think of notes not as absolutes, or even ABCs but rather as relatives of a tone centre. As the bassist is quite capable of changing that next bar or so … well it works ;)

The various ways of arranging notes up the scale is conceptualised in terms of the  classic modes, so although you might be using those D notes … you are thinking in F# phrygian. I was doing exactly that yesterday trying to play Milleret's Chambre Bleu

Minor bebop harmony also exemplifies this. Take (eg) the attached Autumn Leaves riff, which looks to use pretty standard chords in Em. The ii V i seq on line three runs F#m7b5 (F# locrian this time!) … B7,b9 … resolving nicely back to Em 8)

Its V=B chord is an 'altered' dominant, others might write it B7,b9/#9 - so which do you play? Well that depends on how the solo is going and what mood you are in ;)
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Jack Campin

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Re: FLAT OR SHARP!
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2015, 09:14:37 AM »

Quote
In the days before temperated tunings became used composers simply didn't use A#.
Not true.  Quantz (in On Playing the Flute, mid-18th century) goes into a lot of detail about playing in every key without using equal temperament - he even got flutemakers to provide both low D# and Eb keys on the D flute, and they produced different pitches.
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