Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[The Happy Wanderer]

Since the B Major scale has all the black notes, and the C Major scale has all the white notes, wouldn't a four row box tuned BBCC, with one B row and one C row tuned inverted (for example, the inverted B and C rows would be the push notes on the pull, and the pull notes on the push), be totally chromatic? Do these exist?

[Sebastian]

Bandoneon?

[oggiesnr]

Bandoneon?

Nope, that degree of logic does not exist on the keyboard of a bandoneon.

Steve

[TomBom]

Actually C# has all the black notes, in B major B and E would be on the white keys.

[TomB-R]

In any layout with two "diatonic" rows a semitone apart you're going to have two notes that appear in one bellows direction on one row and the other on the other. An ordinary B/C is fully chromatic in the sense that you have all twelve notes of the scale, some on the push, some on the pull and B & E both ways.

The layout suggested gives every note in both directions, in different places. A Continental Chromatic with one note per button will use fewer reeds and buttons to be 100% chromatic in both bellows directions.

I'd suggest that most push pull players find bellows reversals are crucial to the music. The layout suggested seems a very long winded way of getting full chromaticism in both directions, whilst still giving the ability to change notes with bellows direction.

A three row semitone box is 11/12 chromatic on the draw. B/C/C# has everything except G.

If bellows changes aren't a crucial part of the plan then there are the two well established unisonoric systems, Continental chromatic and Pianobox.

[brazilian.BOX]

I believe the term "chromatic" would fit unfortunately just to piano accordions. Understanding a chromatic scale as the complete scale that present ALL the notes and their respective flats# in line and IN ORDER. Exactly as a piano keyboard present the scale for us. C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F# ...
This is my impression about the better, the most correct use to this term "chromatic". Cause the other term very used to qualify, describe accordions, the "diatonic", talks about it "speaks" just in 2 tones (C-F , A-D, G-C ... ). Obviously, if you bring an accordion that is in B-C-C# as you told, and it has yes ALL the notes possible in the scale, presented there on its set of buttons, so obviously we will have wishes about call it as "chromatic". Cause the scale is complete there. We have all the options available. But it is not ir ORDER, and some notes we will have presented in this keyboard some 7 times, as others we will can find just 4. So, in my view, it challenges a bit this concept about the term "chromatic" that, as I told, it would propose anything in ORDER, and with the SAME quantity of all the notes.

[Steve_freereeder]

I believe the term "chromatic" would fit unfortunately just to piano accordions. Understanding a chromatic scale as the complete scale that present ALL the notes and their respective flats# in line and IN ORDER. Exactly as a piano keyboard present the scale for us. C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F# ...
This is my impression about the better, the most correct use to this term "chromatic". Cause the other term very used to qualify, describe accordions, the "diatonic", talks about it "speaks" just in 2 tones (C-F , A-D, G-C ... ). Obviously, if you bring an accordion that is in B-C-C# as you told, and it has yes ALL the notes possible in the scale, presented there on its set of buttons, so obviously we will have wishes about call it as "chromatic". Cause the scale is complete there. We have all the options available. But it is not ir ORDER, and some notes we will have presented in this keyboard some 7 times, as others we will can find just 4. So, in my view, it challenges a bit this concept about the term "chromatic" that, as I told, it would propose anything in ORDER, and with the SAME quantity of all the notes.

This is unnecessarily complex.

An instrument (regardless of whether it is a melodeon, accordion, concertina, fiddle, flute or whatever) can be described as being 'chromatic' if it is capable of playing all the notes of the chromatic scale, regardless of what order the fingers/buttons/keys have to be used in order to achieve those notes.

Some instruments are chromatic over part of their range only,  e.g. a 30-key anglo concertina with the Wheatstone layout can be described as having "a range from C3 to B6; chromatic from A3 to G6".

[Chris Brimley]

An instrument (regardless of whether it is a melodeon, accordion, concertina, fiddle, flute or whatever) can be described as being 'chromatic' if it is capable of playing all the notes of the chromatic scale, regardless of what order the fingers/buttons/keys have to be used in order to achieve those notes.

Absolutely, which is why I feel the term 'diatonic' or even 'melodeon' as applied to say a D/G/Acc instrument, is a bit meaningless.  They are however usually all chromatic but with different layouts, and since there's dozens of different designs, we might as well categorise them all as 'Chromatic Button Accordions', I feel.

[Chris Ryall]

In practice 'chromatic' on a diato involves subtle issues of where the notes lie, and can you get to them all, generally on pull.  The Milleret-Pignol system achieves that, but a Belgian friend is thinking of giving them up in favour of bass clarinet (Hi, Steve ) as 'even in Grenoble' scales run all over the place!

eg My modified C#DG is 'fully chromatic', except that its Ab is only there on push. Scales with 3 flats only then (happen to) work because it is paired with a Bb pull and one can do bellows flicks on the way up. Others … well they either work or they don't. Ditto the useful right hand Bb7 chord wasn't there until I got a Bb push bass.

So I'd say that there is a 'technically' chromatic, and a 'playably' chromatic. The latter on a diato depends what you are up to (though with some very pleasant surprises, eg my fluid Bb blues scale )

Whereas on a CBA - or clarinet for that matter - where there is more logic to the extra notes, all things seem possible  (with practice)

I'd further offer that chromaticity also has a strong interaction with available basses - viz my Bb7 chord. 

[brazilian.BOX]

Hi friends Chris and Steve. 

Well, I told "I believe"... this is the way I fell the things related with this instrument: buttons accordion. I always saw this instrument described as something limited. And so, an instrument very difficult or a bit uncomfortable to play, cause this limitation: lack of notes always, and to play all the musics you want, you always need to "transport" the tone.

So, in my opinion the term chromatic is very used to define a PIANO for example. And a PIANO is something really comfortable to play. It's would finish in a a philosophical debate, cause in my opinion is not appropriate you use a term that define a very complete instrument, to relate it to an instrument that is very known by its LIMITATION (the smaller buttons accordion in the most most of the models of 8, 12bass ).

Cause for example, the B/C/C# that we're talking, yeah it has all the notes in your right hand (treble buttons). But does it have all the notes in the 12 bass buttons also? No it hasn't. So in my opinion you would just can call chromatic a button accordion where you have all the notes in your treble buttons, but also all the notes as basses (of the left hand) and also all the notes as chords (of the left hand also).

Look the photos Ive post here with the right hand and the left hand of a 12bass in B/C/C# (one of the models we were talking about in this topic).

So, in my opinion, the main asset about the melodeon is the LIMITATION. It has its positive and negative aspects. Positive is about it makes us better musicians, and negative is about any chord that you love you will never can form it choosing notes in the treble buttons cause you don't have THAT note very important.

For example... I like the chord B7 but without the note D# I never can form this chord. And look that I don't have this note in a melodeon 2 row C-F and not in a 2 row G-C and not in a 2 row D/G and not in a 2 row A-D (ok here we have just ONE D# as the first button of the out row, but so I can't form chords comfortably with all the other buttons).

And in the melodeons 3row that eventually I will have the D# as option to form the B7 chord, I dont have the B as a bass button option or the B as a chord button option. Take a look at these both photos Ive put here. I can form the chord B7 in the right hand, but I don't have all the basses I would like to use to follow this chord.

So, concluding, melodeons are never exactly chromatic (in my opinion), cause in despite some of them will present for you all the notes as options in the treble buttons, they never will have the same all notes as options in the bass buttons and in the chord buttons of the left hand. And in my opinion THIS aspect would be mandatory to qualify the melodeons as CHROMATIC instruments. Cause, coming back to piano for example, I can form ANY chord with one left hand and follow with any notes fingering inside a scale with my right hand.

[Steve_freereeder]

The Milleret-Pignol system achieves that, but a Belgian friend is thinking of giving them up in favour of bass clarinet (Hi, Steve

What an enlightened person! 

[deltasalmon]

If a clarinet is considered "chromatic" and a semitone DBA can play all the notes that a clarinet can then wouldn't that make it "chromatic" as well? Regardless of whether it can accompany the lead with the left hand side.

[Theo]

This is just playing with words.  Much more fun to play your instrument. :-)

[Sebastian]

This is just playing with words.

It is indeed.

[JoeCooley]

The universal human instinct is to try and reinvent the wheel.
Usually at a great expense of time and money.
Often with only marginal improvement.
Just sayin...

If thats what you enjoy more power to you.

[brazilian.BOX]

This is just playing with words.  Much more fun to play your instrument. :-)

OK Let's play so! 
But just to finalize, I understand about the main interpretation about if has all the notes so it would be chromatic. BUT I can't classify any instrument that carries limitations as chromatic. If I play the chord B7 in the treble buttons, but don't have a button in the bass buttons left hand with the B note as a bass to follow this chord, so it represent limitation for me. So, not chromatic in my opinion. But on this same sense, so... the buttons accordions with PLUS buttons in the left side like those very used by the russians always with 25 buttons in the left side, so, would be totally chromatic on my view.
 

[boxcall]

So a one arm piano player isn't playing a chromatic instrument?
And is my D/C# chromatic or not    I can do a B7 chord if that helps.
I"m such a trouble maker   don't answer that.

[brazilian.BOX]

So a one arm piano player isn't playing a chromatic instrument?
And is my D/C# chromatic or not    I can do a B7 chord if that helps.

Aahahaahahaha nice teasing. 
No, your D/C#, in my opinion is not a chromatic, in my opiinon! 

We have a great problem here I belive. The people that started in melodeon, or the musicians that have the melodeon as the main or the unique instrument, they maybe can have any difficult in RECOGNIZE or really SEE the LIMITATIONS of the instrument. But, the people that started in another instrument, and debating after, even loving the melodeon as I like it a looooot, they so, don't have any problem in recognize the limitations of the melodeon.

I don't have this problem, in recognize the LIMITATIONS that the melodeon really has. No problem for me. We can survive. We always can play the melodeon with another instruments REALLY CHROMATICs! 

Take it here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlc6xCPx60U
A tribute specially for the friends from U.S.A that we have some here in melnet, from N.V, C.A, N.J, N.Y, F.L, T.X and others...   
A track with an electric guitar, a really f*ckin' CHROMATIC instrument, cause you can form ALL the chords, and hit all the basses (in the thicker string) and enter all the all the absolutely all the notes. BUT, if you started in melodeon, and/or just played on it in your life as a musical instrument, so, maybe you TEND to don't see the LIMITATIONS that this instrument really HAS or, if you saw, maybe you tend really to don't recognize it as a bit limited comparing with a guitar or a piano for example. 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=52ai_MFbGDo

[brazilian.BOX]

And for the friends from the amazing Great Britain (the most of the friends here in melnet I believe ) so... another track played in a very CHROMATIC and reaaly and TOTALLY CHROMATIC instrument (cause without ANY limitation! The electric guitar again: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkgx4bqUac

I was in this concert in 1998! Almost 20 years ago! 
Well, I had this worry in offer an oldie (according my experiences), cause I found here in melnet some nice friends around 50 or 60 y.o. So it is the oldest British remembering I had from my 15 years old in Brazil   

[Chris Brimley]

If I can just expand my earlier comment:  the words 'diatonic', 'melodeon' and 'chromatic' (in respect of CBAs) were probably coined when they had some meaning.  Nowadays, with the development of many more 2-row, 2 1/2-row and 3-row 'diato' instruments, and also other chromatic RHS systems, they've rather lost their meaning, and the distinction in terminology would be regarded by non-players as a bit esoteric.  As clearly there is some disagreement about it amongst players too, and because there are now many dozens of different systems around, I've always said why not just call them all 'button accordions', generically?  You can always subdivide if you like, afterwards (and if you want to I quite like the word 'diato' rather than 'diatonic' because it merely reflects the design idea without actually defining it.)

There is some practical point to all this - it seems to me that if you have a big D/G/Acc electronic box like the FR18, I believe there are really few tunes left that you can't have a crack at by changing key.