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Author Topic: Irish press and draw style  (Read 13199 times)

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OrchardAshley90

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2014, 12:10:07 PM »

http://youtu.be/f4_2mugHPW0

there is a video of me playing some ITM although it is an A/D/G I'm not using the a row at all. any good?
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KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2014, 02:56:55 PM »

 
.....
The C#/D player is more than a bit intimidating musically, and before he gave up drink he used to be a bit of a terror to be around on a bad night too, I always thought he scared people off the button accordion by dint of personality -....

I am having difficulty getting my head around this.
I can see how others might not want to be in his company, but people being scared off the accordion by his personality??
How does that work?

Well, there seems to be this unspoken rule that more than one box/banjo/pipes is a bit much, for one thing.  Also this fellow is very good and it would be more than a bit daunting to try and keep up with him, is all I'm saying.  Here's some video:  Irish Trad - YouTube 

Also there's been more than a fair bit of trad music played around where I live in the last 30 years and there are innumerable students of Kevin Burke, who lives here, yet only a few box players have shown up.  Two of them are fiddlers with hand injuries!  Another switched to the PA.  There are more pipers!  It's always been a puzzle to me. 
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KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2014, 03:02:02 PM »

Tim Edey made a whole DVD on playing Irish music on the D/G.  It's the real thing, to say the least.  There are a few vids of him playing that system on YT.  I've always been a bit puzzled by the insistence on semitone boxes being the one and only way to go, does ITM really live or die on our ability to easily produce a Bb?   ;D  That would be news to flute players and pipers.  If you went back in time and gave Michael Grogan or Paddy O'Brien a quint box to play this conversation would be lopsided.

Really like your playing too, Ashley!
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JohnS

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2014, 06:05:01 PM »

G dorian does pop up as key for Irish music, particularly in the Clare repertoire, so a Bb is certainly handy.  However I would say that the main benefits of semitone boxes would be the nice tight intervals across the rows for your cuts and rolls and the ability to do finger slides from the inside row to the outside, frequently used for triplets.
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2014, 03:13:52 AM »

I've always been a bit puzzled by the insistence on semitone boxes being the one and only way to go...

I think TomB-R answered that point pretty conclusively above Kevin. If you have any feeling for Irish music then with application you'll be able to make it sound good on any old kind of accordion. But there are plenty of good reasons for choosing a semitone box. I myself considered D/G before choosing C#/D but having played whistle for years I didn't want to be limited to the repertoire you can play on a D whistle. The important thing is surely, whatever system you have, get stuck into it and get the most out of it that you possibly can. You'll never make a fiddle out of it whatever you do.

Ashley, your playing is obviously solid, accomplished and rich. Personally I'd like to hear the tune cut free from the bass accompaniment, which apart from forcing the melody into a bit of a strait-jacket seems disproportionately loud, what do you think?  :|glug
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Vector

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2014, 07:56:55 PM »

Really nice playing Ashely!

http://youtu.be/f4_2mugHPW0

there is a video of me playing some ITM although it is an A/D/G I'm not using the a row at all. any good?
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chasing the tunes

TomB-R

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2014, 11:11:26 PM »

One may play Irish tunes to their heart's content on D/G or any other quint tuned box, but we are talking about
'Irish press and draw style' on this thread.
You can't get away from the fact that Irish style press and draw can only be produced properly on a semitone box.
On a quint tuned box.. you may well call it press and draw, but 'Irish style' it is not.
I think you are "begging the question" in the classic sense of the term, justifying your own argument with an assertion contained in your argument.
"Irish press and draw can only be played on a semitone box because Irish press and draw can only be played on a semitone box."
Evidence, proof!

Do you agree with others that P&D relates more to C#/D "melodeon style" playing, or do you think it refers to B/C, or do you think it applies to any semitone box, in which case, on your argument, the term becomes meaningless.

(You'll notice that I'm not actually disagreeing with what you say!   ;))
Tom
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gettabettabox

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2014, 01:22:07 AM »

I tried a Google search, and there seems to have been some detailed research in to this.
Three-line summary:
In the early 20th century Irish players had single row melodeons which forced a particular style of playing and ornamentation.
In the 1950s the different style of playing evolved based on two row semitone boxes that were then widely available.
Then it seems Jackie Daly led a movement back to an elaborated version of the old style, still using two row boxes.

See http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41699846?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104228556611
and
http://buttonbox.ru/books/graeme_smith.pdf

anahata's earlier posting reflects my take on this subject. (Jackie daly yes, performing profile/ exposure etc.. but johnny O'Leary and others i'm sure, ahead of him)
....single row origins, easing on to the ''chromatic'' boxes as they were called, but mostly played with a dominant row style.

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richard.fleming

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #68 on: October 06, 2014, 07:51:31 AM »

:-
"A 'press and draw' player playing a B/C box in a session would not have endeared him/herself to fiddle and flute players
and I have no doubt that this scenario would have fed into the widespread view of the 'press and draw' system being inferior."

End of quote.

Do you mean by this someone playing a B/C box like a melodeon and hence in C?

When I first got among Irish musicians back in the '60s many of the box players were musically very illiterate, and had simply worked out by ear how to use whatever box they had - usually B/C- to play tunes in the right key, armed with the knowledge that you had to play 'across the rows' to do that, or as one said to me, to 'mix a few of the notes from the other row in'.

 I also sometimes wonder, from my own musically illiterate standpoint, if even the great Joe Cooley when given a box in different keys would simply play with the usual fingering and let string players tune to the result.

I'm rubbish at quoting from other posts too - another illiteracy!

« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 07:56:11 AM by richard.fleming »
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2014, 06:12:29 PM »

Quint box demonstration:  Tim Edey Performing on the C/F Sandpiper melodeon/Accordion - YouTube  Sounds like Irish music to me.

Same with flute. If you want to play Irish flute, you get a simple system flute. There are loads of silver Boehm flute players (classical background) happily playing along in sessions. Joanie Madden is the one proof that the music can be played to a high level on Boehm flute.

Not a Noel Rice or Seán Moloney fan, eh?  They do great work on the Boehm as well.  Seán is on YouTube I think.  You also had Paddy Carty, who could play any tune - I have a cut of him playing the Beeswing in its original key of Bb, for instance - on a Radcliffe system flute, which was a competing system to the Boehm in the 19th century that catered to flautists who wanted a chromatic instrument that retained some of the fingering of the old simple system flutes. 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 08:40:34 PM by KLR »
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KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2014, 09:50:07 PM »

Don't you think it's bona fide Irish music and great playing, though?  Whatever the exact notes are.

Sorry to inadvertently drag us off topic, I do love to chat about this stuff with you, "Steiavbh" or whatever he's calling himself this week  ;), and the handful of other people on this board who listen to or play Irish music. 
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nfldbox

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2014, 02:27:47 AM »

Oh bother. Do I really want to get into this? But while Tim Edey is an amazing player, and the tune is certainly Irish, the CF box works against either the CD or the BC mode of playing. There are all kinds of transitions missing there.
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Earbrass

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2014, 09:41:23 PM »

Careful now. These kinds of debates can so easily turn nasty:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/polish-man-was-hit-with-fish-in-row-over-music-290247.html
  :o
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ilmatyynyalukseni on täynnä ankeriaita

MartinW

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2014, 11:31:26 PM »

Sounds fishy to me.
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gettabettabox

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2014, 11:50:14 PM »

yes, definitely something fishy...hard to believe a 'full' bottle of wine was involved?
and just in case you think it was the bottle that did the damage, the current specimen rod-caught Pollack for irish waters is over 19lbs, which I think is about shand morino weight.   (:)
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KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2015, 05:20:42 AM »

BUMP

From an old edition of Treoir, the journal of CCE, the pdf file itself may be found at the Comhaltas Archive website, its name is TRE-1969-7.original.  The anonymous author describes the two styles of accordions at the beginning of the article, and has various further comments on what adjudicators at competitions should look out for in contestants' playing - proper ornamentation, rhythm, etc. 

Quote
An Bosca Cheoil

(As "NOTAI 00 MHOLTOIRI)

There are many styles of producing traditional Irish music on this instrument but in the main two direct styles, let us say "X" and "Y”.

“X” STYLE

The older style, in which good rhythm Is most prominent. Usually this style is achieved without much access to the second row. In one key, let us say "D," the style is on the press, in another key, let us say "G," the style Is on the draw, still with little access to the second row. This style may be frowned upon by the more modern accordeon player, but often it is the more accurate of the two styles in reproducing traditional music as the ornamentation is not too chromatic (i.e. bringing in too many notes foreign to both the tune and the key), and is very often clearer music. This style ought to be encouraged more as a very good musician could produce music closer to that of pipes, flute or violin. (Accordeon usually used D/D4).

“Y" STYLE

(Accordeon usually used B/C)

This is a style in which access to the second row is most prominent in both keys "D" and “G." It is usually termed as “playing on the draw" which really does not accurately describe the style. It is usually easy to detect this style, played on the inside row using one to two notes on the outside rows to complete the scale and many others outside as ornamentation. This style can also be an accurate imitation of traditional Irish music but to-day musicians tend to over-use the outside row for ornamentation, hence producing grace notes, triplets, etc., quite foreign to the music, also contributing to muffling of the melody and losses of time, etc.

The original article included the cryptic line "(Accordeon usually used D/D4)."  This was a scan of a paper document using optical character recognition software and the original undoubtedly said "D/D#."  Mistakes like these occur all the time using this type of program. 
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Stiamh

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2015, 01:42:12 PM »

The anonymous author...

Anonymity for the purposes of self-protection, perhaps...

I wonder to what extent the accordion "usually used" was D/D#. Cooley, yes, John Clifford in his pre-PA days, yes... Jackie Daly says that C/C# was in common use (played C#/D style) before C#/D boxes became available.

Coincidentally last night I watched the Sé Mo Laoch re-run of a programme on Johnny Leary, in which (starting at about 10:40) Johnny L says that, when he was 13 or 14, Padraig O'Keeffe told him that he was "learning the wrong scale" on a B/C box and that he should get "an E/D well that's a C#/D, he said". (If anyone can interpret Johnny's words more accurately, please correct me here.) Since Johnny was born in 1923, this would have been in the mid-1930s!

Very interesting programme with lots of well-known Sliabh Luachra players featured or in the background.
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KLR

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2015, 05:08:33 PM »

O'Keefe could figure out what was going on easy enough, he played the melodeon himself I believe.  So if Johnny was playing on the inner row and the music was coming out in C you need a box with a D row, and thus the outer row would be in C#.  Musicians have always loved higher pitched instruments like D/D# boxes too, you have all those high pitch flutes and uilleann pipes, and fiddlers in Donegal tuning up too; although you also have plenty of examples of fiddlers who favored tuning down a titch - including John Doherty.

Looking at the scans of old catalogs Stephen posted here you see C/C# all over the place, it was the original layout proposed for a chromatic melodeon by concertina maker George Jones after all.  The accordion companies were far removed from the players too and took decades to actually respond to their demands, probably only via noticing what was selling and just marketing more of the same, thus your Double Rays with basses in B and C...
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Rees

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Re: Irish press and draw style
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2015, 08:25:02 PM »

C/C# was also the most common keys in England and Scotland until the D/G and the B/C boxes came in.
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Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
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