Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Author Topic: Tangled fingers  (Read 5055 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8105
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2015, 07:34:33 AM »

I'd like to thank Chirs B for reminding me of a lovely tune that so far I've only chorded to in sessions.

Challenge, isn't it? I think the "about" in this is that it spends about half its tine in tension, that is to say the note is "out" of the natural chord - therein its spirited nature?

Certainly, having a go on Tuesday I found a right finger on "other" row far more often than note, and (as per sessions) it doesn't "play by ear". My C#/D reversal helper got used a lot, a pull E would have been very useful. Gan get round that with a pull G bass, but it feels very new at speed.

Anyone else hear a C#min,b5 chord … resolving to A … resolving to D in there? As I say, tense. More practice needed!
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1877
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2015, 09:45:49 AM »

C#mb5 immediately before bar 5 or before the first bar? It would give a semitone run of G to G# to A, which would be nice, but the C# and E notes against the melody D note at the end of bar 4 might be a little clashing?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 11:11:24 AM by Chris Brimley »
Logged

Bob Ellis

  • Hero?....Where's my medal, then?
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2641
  • Ain't I cute?
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2015, 10:10:18 AM »

Stiamh raises a valid point about learning tunes by ear in sessions or elsewhere. Clearly, there isn't time to work out which combination of melody buttons and basses to use when picking up a tune in a session. This is where the default positions for each key come into play backed up by default chords that one can play almost automatically.

For instance, when trying to pick up a tune in G in a session, I will tend to stay on the G row except where the tune drops below the key note, when I will drop down onto the D row. I might also cross the rows to play a G, A, B run on the push or an A, B, C run on the pull. My default bass position for this is to stay on the G/D bass buttons, except for C and E notes in the melody, when I will move to the C basses.

If the tune is not too difficult, I can usually make a reasonable attempt at playing it on the fly using this approach, but, if I decide to add the tune to my repertoire, I will take it home and look more closely at the melody and bass options to produce an interpretation of the tune that I find pleasing. This is when the more analytical approach that Chris B. and I have been discussing kicks in. Sight reading using our analytical approaches is difficult, because we are exploring all the options available and making decisions between them. For me, sight reading would be much easier if I restricted myself to playing a tune using my default melody and bass positions, but that defeats the object of having a D/G/acc. three-row box. It is what I do with my one-row boxes, but that is another story.

In fact, I am not particularly interested in being able to sight read because there are few circumstances in which it would be of any real benefit to me. If I am playing in public, I won't be playing from the music and, when playing at home, it is sufficient for me to be able to pick out the tune from the dots. I use them as an aid to devising an arrangement and then learning the tune. Once I have learnt it, I dispense with the sheet music unless I need to remind myself about some aspect of the arrangement.
Logged
Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, Acadian one-row in D; Junior Martin one-row in C.

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1877
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2015, 11:08:33 AM »

I agree with pretty much all of that, Bob.  I think it's also possible to 'hear' more complex chord progressions in a session than the '3-chord trick', and automatically to adopt different fingering positions for them - G Em Am D7 is a good example, where I would be looking at G row, D row, G row, G or D row, automatically.  I think it's possible to teach yourself to do this on the fly to some extent, but swapping finger positions is less obvious, because it often depends on features of the particular tune for which there aren't any obvious musical rules, and so some pre-playing experimentation is going to be involved. 
Logged

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5016
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2015, 11:11:57 AM »

Stiamh raises a valid point about learning tunes by ear in sessions or elsewhere. Clearly, there isn't time to work out which combination of melody buttons and basses to use when picking up a tune in a session.

Except that, as you then say, there are simple patterns where you can cross the rows. For me the same applies, except I seem to have a few more patterns than the two you suggest. If I'm following another melodeon player I'll try to match their chords. I won't get it right every time of course, and like you, if I take the tune home and work on it I'll almost certainly make a lot more changes.

For me, sight reading on the melodeon is not all that different from playing by ear, because I tend to hear the tune in my head when looking at the music and play what I hear. If the tune is too complicated to do that (doesn't take much...), I resort to mapping notes to places on the scale and it all gets slow and less sophisticated. This means I can transpose a simple tune at sight (using the "play what I hear" method) but if the tune's too difficult to hear in my head then transposing goes south rather quickly  :-[
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh bands: www.fourhandband.co.uk www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8105
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2015, 11:46:53 AM »

C#mb5 immediately before bar 5 or before the first bar? It would give a semitone run of G to G# to A, which would be nice, but the C# and E notes against the melody D note at the end of bar 4 might be a little clashing?

C#mb5 immediately before bar 5 or before the first bar? It would give a semitone run of G to G# to A, which would be nice, but the C# and E notes against the melody D note at the end of bar 4 might be a little clashing?

Straight in at bar 1! If you play on the pull the first 2 bars run | C#Ø A(7) | D - | Not entirely folky but it works, and for someone else chording its basically about sliding from 4 fingers on D row (=C# half-dim) onto pull A7 (A on G row, C#EG on D)

It sort of fell at me playing G on bass pull (18 bass) as my C# is adjacent. N/A solo 2-row, but a duo could do it

I'm 'off-box' just now but will certainly give that chomatic run idea a try (next button from C#  (:))  as it sounds like it'd be even cooler.  :|glug
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1877
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2015, 12:14:41 PM »

Ah, I see Chris, you're talking half-diminished, so G#'s all replaced by G's in the chord, in which case ignore my last comment - this chord nomenclature has always confused me, I confess!

Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8105
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2015, 01:42:47 PM »

"minor" "7" and "flat 5th" - what's confusing?

Whereas "half-diminished" - er which half?   :|glug
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1877
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2015, 02:20:13 PM »

It's just this -  in the chord nomenclature C#m6, say, there'd be the 1st, minor 3rd, fifth, and sixth notes.  Therefore by analogy in the terminology C#mb5, you'd expect the 1st, minor 3rd, fifth and flattened fifth notes, wouldn't you (maybe with the b5 an octave higher)?  Whereas in fact with a half-diminished chord, you modify the fifth to b5, you don't add another note to the chord (in fact isn't it often written C#m7b5 because you also have the minor 7th note B in the chord?)

The term 'half-diminished' to me makes more sense because you're only flattening the seventh note once, whereas with the (fully) diminished chord, it's flattened twice.  Though for some reason the term C#m6b5, which would seem to represent a fully diminished chord by analogy, doesn't seem to exist, does it?

 
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8105
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2015, 06:49:06 PM »

Sorry, Chris, should have written C#m7,b5.

For any baffled melodeonista still tuned in, this is chord vii in the seven possible "alternate notes" chords available on your D scale and is "trivially" played. Just grab any 4 adjacent D buttons right end, and pull. It's rather more useful playing in the "related" key of B minor, as part of the minor ii,V,i progression.

Sus chords? Well I play them very flexibly. often simply laying a finger across buttons on D+G rows on the pull. Some of these things seem to be as much about attitude as anything else?

Chromatic run: cool as expected  ::) thanks for the idea  :D
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

GBbox

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 73
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2015, 10:41:36 PM »

At a glance, an interesting discussion that I hope to find time to read carefully on Sunday.

Anyway, about original question Chis has made – how to notate a tune to avoid the tangling fingers problem -, I dare say that the obvious replay is to use a tablature. I don't think really the CADB system is easy to read, but the Corgeron System (one line for each row of the instruments), once you got the hang of it, is really showing the development of the tune on the treble keyboard. And you can add the fingers to use if you need to.

As an alternative, for those who can read music and know the keyboard layout of their instruments, a practical alternative using just the score is to change the colour of the note heads according to the row they are played on. Simple, cost effective and elegant!

For me, the score and the chords are enough. I've found that, most of the times, even after months or even years I've not played a tune, the chord progression is all that I need to recall the fingering. Most of the times obviously doesn't mean always, but on another hand I've also found that, when I start to play again a tune after having neglected it for a while, I tend to change the old fingering here and there anyway.
Logged

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1877
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2015, 10:47:47 AM »

Quote
I tend to change the old fingering here and there anyway

Exactly what I find! - then in my case I'll fall over when I get to the next bit, and get lost because I've lost the mental pattern.  I think of the problem like this - the brain modifies its long term-memory with new things it learns, so when you recall the old memory you can never be sure it hasn't got 'corrupted', for example by learning another tune that you hadn't realised was similar.  So at the crucial points where this is possibly going to happen (probably because you have to use an unusual fingering), you need to nudge it in the right direction with a mnemonic.  This is why I try to run through a tune a few hours before performing it, in hopes that the short-term memory will reinforce rather than confuse the long-term.

I've just had exactly this situation arise - I was rehearsing a tune for a gig tonight (Blarney Pilgrim) that I haven't played wrongly for a long time.  There's a few notes at the beginning that have been simplicity itself in the past, but suddenly I found I was playing them completely wrong, so much so that I couldn't for the life of me remember how I used to do it.  I had to go back to basics, try all sorts of alternatives till I found the right one, and then write in a mnemonic that distinguishes it from the other possible fingerings.  I think that I use those notes in another tune that I've been learning recently but play with a different fingering, and that's what messed me up.
Logged

GBbox

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 73
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2015, 12:55:04 PM »

Quote
I tend to change the old fingering here and there anyway

Exactly what I find! - then in my case I'll fall over when I get to the next bit, and get lost because I've lost the mental pattern. 

That might happen, but I really meant that usually I deliberately decide to change the fingering when I start playing again a tune that I have neglected for a while. Some times this is due to the request of another musician to change my old chord progression, but mainly it happens because the old fingering solutions, that seemed  to me as the most expressive ones when I learned the tune, don't sound satisfactory anymore to my ear.

I think this could be be partly explained telling that my way of playing is changing (thecnically) along the time, but I think that the tunes I currently play (at least  in terms of style) could have a role as well in the process, influencing me in an unconscious way.
Logged

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1877
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2015, 01:25:45 PM »

I wish I had that flexibility - it causes me a lot of trouble trying to change the way I've played a tune for years.
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8105
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: Tangled fingers
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2015, 07:16:13 AM »

picking up on what g8box said above - down in Grenoble they (mostly) teach from the dots and that certainly did me good. Everyone has to find their own fingering - the spread of layouts is pretty large beyond a decent phalanx of Pignol/Milleret system, and "French" castas.

As for annotations - I write in the (right end) chords, though which tends to be a group decision as we are trying to support the improvisor.  If playing theme I might just write 'push  or 'pull 'over the stave (usually that specifies the actual buttons?) or an X or similar if it is a rock bellows note. Again that's enough?

Impro … well it tends to be just "dorian" "mixo" "phr.major" (again that's often group advice) as that's the way they teach it (yes, there are others). Beyond the mode defining your "set of notes" one is supposed to then order them on the fly, ideally paying respect to whoever went last ;)

So that's to say - go for the bigger picture - what chord a phrase are you on - or that it's a run of dorian notes perhaps against Em other end. Melodeons are actually built that way IMHO.

I think to do more is to move towards Tab, and we could argue whether  to follow Tab is actually  to play music.? I'd refer to "painting by numbers" analogy in other threads? :|glug
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal