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Author Topic: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?  (Read 4037 times)

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Hasse

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The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« on: May 07, 2009, 01:43:19 PM »

After getting my new fantastic Luukinen 2,5 C/F box, (I�ll post a review on that box later), my C/C# box are starting to collect dust, and therefore I�m considering retuning it to C#/D.

Until now I�ve had a B/C bass layout on the C/C# which worked ok for tunes in C, F, Eb and related minors. But now that I got the Luukinen box for those tunes, I plan to play tunes in mainly G, D and A on the box after retuning to C#/D.

But what kind of simpel bass layout would really work on a C#/D? � non at all?  ???

I was thinking that maybe something like:
D/D G/G
A/A E/E
or maybe?
D/A D/G
E/E A/A
...??

« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:19:09 PM by Theo »
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Owen Woods

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 01:55:32 PM »

D/A B/G
E/E A/C

perhaps?
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TomB-R

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 02:19:10 PM »

In designing my D/D# bass layout I started by jotting down the treble end push/pull of the notes of the chords I'd most need for the keys of D and G. I found I had a shortage of pull button "slots" and an excess of pushes but came up with something (on the second attempt) that I'm pretty happy with, and which has a lot in common with D/G bass layout, which seems helpful in principle.

Perhaps a re-think from basics for C#/D on those lines would be helpful?
Tom

Edited for clarity and might as well put in what I came up with.

Knee
G/G    A/C        >Bellows
D/A  Bm/Em
Chin


« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 04:13:44 PM by TomB-R »
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Stiamh

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 02:49:16 PM »

An E on the push is a definite luxury - something to be considered if you had 12 basses, otherwise a waste of good bass space. The same is true of a D on the pull.

For general purposes I think you'd have a hard time bettering the standard modern bass layout with the Jackie Daly variant of G/G instead of D/G.

D/A G/G
A/E F#/B

If you haven't a stop to remove thirds, I wouldn't have any thirds at all.

The major shortcoming with this layout is the lack of a C chord. You might decide to ditch the B in favour of a C, in which case there'd be little point in keeping the F#, so you could have F/C.

I think C#/D boxes really need 10 basses as a minimum - the ones above plus F/C.

When you move to 12 basses you have to decide what to do with the 6th pair and there is no obvious answer. Jackie Daly has E/C# on his current box, I've ordered E/F# on the box I'm waiting for.

On my current 12-bass box I have F#/C# down the bottom but with a unisonorous B at the top. This was not a great idea - the F# is too far away from the B. Jackie makes great use of his C# in "walking bass" patterns but I haven't been able to. I thought an F# on the draw, for F# major in the odd waltz, would be more useful.
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Hasse

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2009, 12:54:04 PM »

Thanks for all your replies! Gave me a lot to think about. I do like the idea of this bass layout:
D/A G/G
A/E F/C
Seems to be a good alternative for an 8 bass C#/D.

Cheers!  (:)
 
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Hasse

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 08:03:19 PM »

Hope you also had a nice weekend with sun and lots of playing  :||: I had some interesting times discussing bass layouts with a CBA player  ::) and that gave me more strange and useless ideas... and made me rethink about C#/D bass layouts. The best bass layout for a 8 button C#/D bass is probably the Jackie Daly layout Steve suggested:
For general purposes I think you'd have a hard time bettering the standard modern bass layout with the Jackie Daly variant of G/G instead of D/G.

D/A G/G
A/E F#/B

If you haven't a stop to remove thirds, I wouldn't have any thirds at all.
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TomB-R

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 11:24:23 PM »

Are you folks not going to be playing in G at all?  I'd certainly rather have a C than an E.
Tom
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Andrel

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 01:54:21 AM »

 I personally find the E invaluable, better still in both directions to use it as a a drone. (If you have more than 8 buttons, that is.)
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TomB-R

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2009, 09:40:13 AM »

I personally find the E invaluable, better still in both directions to use it as a a drone. (If you have more than 8 buttons, that is.)
You'd sooner have an E than a C?
(Obviously it makes a difference what style of music and in what keys you play.)
Tom
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Stiamh

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 12:51:16 PM »

I personally find the E invaluable, better still in both directions to use it as a a drone. (If you have more than 8 buttons, that is.)
You'd sooner have an E than a C?
(Obviously it makes a difference what style of music and in what keys you play.)
Tom

Yes the absence of a C chord definitely compromises tunes in G. Especially tunes that fall outside the trad. Irish dance tune category - waltzes, pieces by Carolan, and so on. For jigs and reels you can fudge somewhat, in some places, by using a thirdless A chord in place of the C, and possibly an Em too.

If you're playing Irish trad on C#/D chances are you'll be playing a lot of tunes in E minor modes, and to a lesser extent B minor. This is why I think that the standard setup (esp. with the addition of the unisonoric G) is best on balance if you've only got 8 buttons to play with.
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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 03:34:43 PM »

The C is equally crucial, of course, and I honestly don't know what kind of setup I'd have if I only had an 8-bass system. (I am spoiled with my 16-button bass side) F/C would be a priority over F#/C#, I know that much.
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Hasse

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2009, 07:30:58 PM »

If your going to play lots of tunes in G the C would of course be nice to have in your bass side. But how about the F#/B, If you want to keep the /B wouldn�t it be a good idea to replace the F# with something more practical like B/B or E/B or is this a very stupid idea?  ???

« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:19:43 PM by Theo »
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Stiamh

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass non at all?
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2009, 09:07:35 PM »

If you play tunes esp. waltzes in Bm, and I play quite a few, F#m is practically a must. Bm on the push would be handy theoretically but if it were more important than F# you could be sure that Jackie Daly would recommend it, and he doesn't!

On my current 12 bass box I asked for B/B at the top and F# down on one of the extra pairs, which I now regret. It should be up there next to the B and I'll get around to having it moved some time.
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Andy

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2012, 08:45:41 PM »

Hi

Joining this one a bit late - but it did start long before I took up the box.

I have been playing B/C for a short while but am suffering C#/D envy

The only things butting me off going C#/D are:

Cost
How well the B/C works for the key of G
C#/D basses

Although it would be a more radical departure from standard, wonder what you think of the concept of chords only on the bass side?
This would allow more chords and more chords available in both directions.

I might occasionaly play in other keys but chords for D, G and A would do me - other keys can be melody only.

If you did go this route what would be your ideal layout?
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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2012, 02:31:58 AM »

d/a, d/g ....would be enough for me, t'ain't right i know, but if they're totally bedazzled by the music (like even i am,) then it's enough.
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carlowbox

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2012, 02:36:02 AM »

when they're bedazzled, they can only look at how wonderful you are, but lay off the bass/chords if it's in e minor or b minor or other thingy.
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Stiamh

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2012, 03:11:42 AM »

Although it would be a more radical departure from standard, wonder what you think of the concept of chords only on the bass side?

Wouldn't that require custom reedblocks. which might add to the costs that are already causing you to hesitate?

But I think I would go for bass notes only, rather than chords only. You could design the layout in such a way that you could obtain quite a few chords, esp. tonic + dominant, by pressing two or more buttons at once. As a minimum I'd want ABCEG on the pull and DFF#AG on the push. You'd still have three left over for each direction. Adding DF#C# on the pull and BEC# or Cnat on the push would give you lots of possibilities for complete and partial chords.

Could be an interesting way to avoid the need for 12 basses on C#/D, but again it would probably require custom reedblocks - wouldn't it, DBA techs?

You can do so much more than D, G and A you know... even with a standard 8-bass layout such as the one I recommended earlier in this thread (as long as the chords are thirdless or have a register to block the thirds).

G is a little more challenging on C#/D than B/C, but not that much. And D is sooo much easier!

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Theo

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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2012, 09:01:25 AM »


Could be an interesting way to avoid the need for 12 basses on C#/D, but again it would probably require custom reedblocks - wouldn't it, DBA techs?


Yes, to accommodate the usual size of bass reeds you would need to replace the chord block with a larger one, pallets might need to be enlarged too in some cases.
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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2012, 09:56:09 AM »

Steve I think the mid bass reeds would possibly suit better, the low bass don't combine very harmonically at all but the mid bass combine very pleasantly and may physically fit with more ease and less potential for picking up unwanted, unsympathetic vibrations etc, what do you think? AtB mory
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Re: The perfect C#/D bass� non at all?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2012, 10:12:31 AM »

Good point Mory,  and if you take a look at the bass only layout in this thread you can see a completely different idea if bass for a semitone box.
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