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Author Topic: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?  (Read 7228 times)

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Andy Next Tune

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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2015, 10:50:21 PM »

MerseyMM have traditionally danced Signposts as their first dance at May Day 'sun-upping' to a solo musician.

Played well, the tune has a lightness which lifts the dancers and maintains the 'flow' in and out of the signposts.

Adding any harmony needs to maintain that lightness. And as Ollie has shown, it can be done really well.

However I've seen teams destroy Signposts with their band's collective left hands!!!

Signposts is a 'special' dance for many morris dancers, so handle its music with care, it is one of the elements that makes it special!!!

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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2015, 11:00:50 PM »

I think what people are correctly pointing out is that the field town tunes are particularly special ... and that they are very much fiddle tunes.  Judging by the quality of the tunes collected, the field town fiddler at the time must have been a particularly skilled player.  Can you imagine Jinky Wells playing those melodies?

I won't continue my arguing ... it's clear that it will get me no-where!
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2015, 11:28:32 AM »

I don't recall the o.p. referring to playing for dancing and yet most the answers here seem to say that there's only one way to play it FOR DANCING.  I'd be quite surprised if that were the case but I don't play for Morris so what do I know.  On the other hand there are some lovely Fieldtown tunes and because they're such interesting tunes it's a shame if they're only ever played to accompany the clumping of many feet or that they're only played in one particular way. As Lester says YMMV.  (:)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 07:46:49 PM by Mcgrooger »
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2015, 11:43:40 AM »

Hmmm... An interesting viewpoint!
As the tunes are, by definition, tunes specifically designed for a particular tradition, the tradition dictates they are played in a certain way to enable you to dance that tradition as it is notated.

Whilst I agree they need not be played just for dancing but for their sheer  beauty, they are defined by the specific dance that is Fieldtown.  Fieldtown defines the beat, meter and emphasis all the way through the tune. Remove them too far from this definitive way then you start to remove them from their defining roots and surely take the tune away form what it should be?

....and as for 'clumping feet' you never ever have clumping feet dancing Fieldtown  >:E
Q
standing up for his tradition  ;)
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2015, 12:00:40 PM »

I know I said I wouldn't argue further but I can't hold my tongue!

the tradition dictates they are played in a certain way to enable you to dance that tradition as it is notated.

tradition   trəˈdɪʃ(ə)n   noun

"the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way."

_______________________________

I fail to see how strictly adhering to notation of a dance or tune, which is simply a snapshot of it at one single point in time, can possibly be viewed as "traditional" - when the very definition of traditions are something that are passed down the generations or the process of doing that.  Especially within a tradition like folk music or dance which was orally transmitted and has clearly changed over the years!

Or are you suggesting that the morris tradition is completely dead and it can only ever be a recreation of something collected in the early 1900s just before it died?

I'd love to be able to think that it's still something that's alive and therefore evolving ... and not a dusty museum piece :-)
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2015, 12:14:40 PM »

No, absolutely not. The tradition evolves always - it always has done and it still does.
I'm a member of a side that has always looked forward and have been creative within the tradition we dance - Fieldtown! Though what we do might not appeal to everyone, that's what we are and I'm absolutely of that opinion that things must evolve.

The point I was trying to make ( and failed! ) was that the way a tune is played and the dance it refers to goes hand in glove. A tune that is played across different traditions will be played in different ways, to emphasise the nuances of that  tradition.
If you play it in a way that irons out or removes these nuances, I think it looses something.
I'm thinking of  couple of tunes that have been recorded recently where the player puts their own interpretation into the tune. That's fine, it moves it on and brings it to a wider audience than just those who know it through their dance.
But..... I'm thinking of one of the old Fieldtown tunes that often gets played at a faster-than-dancing speed and in my opinion I think some of the power is lost from a glorious tune.
My opinion..... possibly probably (!) heavily influenced from years of dancing, others will differ, and have every right to do so!
cheers
Q
 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 12:22:02 PM by Thrupenny Bit »
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squeezy

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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2015, 12:42:40 PM »

I thought that might be where you were coming from Q!  In which case I probably agree.

I am always a bit concerned when people start saying things like "the tune loses something when you do that to it" because it doesn't ... the tune is the same and will always be safe ... it might lose something for that particular rendition of it, sure, but it's not irreversible!!  You can always go back and play the tune properly.  I find that it remains unharmed no matter what dreadful chords I've subjected it to.

;-)
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2015, 12:50:01 PM »

I think the questions raised by Squeezy and Q are:
(1) Should a tune that has its origin associated with dance be played outside of that dance context?
(2) If so, does it have to be played in the same way as you'd play it for dancing?
(3) If you play it differently, it that a bad thing?

I'm all for not losing sight of the fact that the music is for dancing to, and I agree that it can lose a lot when you take it away from the dance (or vice versa), but there have been times when a morris tune has been played in a completely different way that makes it into something every bit as good as the original, even though it's no longer a dance tune.

Also, it's a two way traffic: a lot of morris tunes started life as something else and sometimes they got mercilessly mangled to make them into morris tunes.

I'm not sure how far I'd want to go with Signposts. You could turn it into a bouncy jig but that would take a lot of getting used to, to say the least...

the tune is the same and will always be safe ... it might lose something for that particular rendition of it, sure, but it's not irreversible!!  You can always go back and play the tune properly.  I find that it remains unharmed no matter what dreadful chords I've subjected it to.
cf. Carthy: "the worst thing you can do with traditional songs is to not sing them"

(edit: typo)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 09:19:03 PM by Anahata »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2015, 01:30:27 PM »

Squeezy - phew! should have been explicit in the first place!
and thanks Anahata for summing it up.

As both remind me tunes are far more robust than I give them credit for.
'twas the dancer ruling my head when I wrote, and in reality it's good to think more openly about tunes.
cheers
Q
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Graham Spencer

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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2015, 02:38:20 PM »

if they're only ever played to accompanying the clumping of many feet

CLUMPING???!!!
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2015, 02:43:57 PM »

In the end, I think we're probably not too far apart from one another; I have no problem with anyone harmonising and playing any tune in any way they like - it's my purely personal opinion that this particular tune sounds better with no accompaniment, and as I said in my original posting, others may very well disagree. The important thing is, indeed, that the tune gets played and isn't left to moulder ignominiously away.

Graham
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2015, 03:06:34 PM »

if they're only ever played to accompanying the clumping of many feet

CLUMPING???!!!

To be fair, Mcgrooger did point out "but I don't play for Morris so what do I know" so might reasonably not be aware that this tune is in the Cotwold tradition, in which we don't "clump", and furthermore Fieldtown in which we don't "clump" even more.  :||:
(Other styles are available.)
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2015, 03:24:50 PM »

if they're only ever played to accompanying the clumping of many feet

CLUMPING???!!!

To be fair, Mcgrooger did point out "but I don't play for Morris so what do I know" so might reasonably not be aware that this tune is in the Cotwold tradition, in which we don't "clump", and furthermore Fieldtown in which we don't "clump" even more.  :||:
(Other styles are available.)

 ;D ;D
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2015, 04:20:31 PM »

if they're only ever played to accompanying the clumping of many feet

CLUMPING???!!!

To be fair, Mcgrooger did point out "but I don't play for Morris so what do I know" so might reasonably not be aware that this tune is in the Cotwold tradition, in which we don't "clump", and furthermore Fieldtown in which we don't "clump" even more.  :||:
(Other styles are available.)

CLUMPING Malcolm depends on which team you belong to. I've never met any clumpers in my life.....ish.  8)
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2015, 07:44:50 PM »

I became intrigued with the melodeon when I as given the 'Morris On ' tape years before I got myself a melodeon. I found the whole tape strange and wonderful, in particular 'Signposts' or Shepherds Hey. I had no idea of whether or not it had a bass line or whether it was traditional or whether people danced to it or what what was correct form, it was just mysterious and wondrous, it just slid me into a totally other world of music. For just over two years of playing melodeon it is still the magical bit of playing the box, and any tune that avoids the left hand has my vote.... >:E
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2015, 12:24:16 PM »

Signposts is one of Jackstraws Morris favourites. This recording captures the basses I play. Possibly worth noting I have removed the third from the A-chord as I want A minor. Must admit I enjoy it best when playing just with our recorder player.
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2015, 06:48:34 PM »

Jig Crew Shepherds' Hey Fieldtown with accompaniment   https://youtu.be/dxeKMhfkYfk 
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2018, 04:03:17 PM »

Is there an abc file of Fieldtown tunes?

Stephen

Yes it's here


It's been interesting reading through this old thread as our side will be learning Signpost in the closed season and it hasn't be played or danced by any of the current members. I had to go off searching for the dots whilst the foreman has been watching a YouTube video to learn the dance. We had already decided that this would be our first dance with a solo musician playing and the box player decided he would play the melody only as he didn't like the available chords (standard D/G Pokerwork so no Am) and doesn't want to play bass notes without chords.
Our discussions on the subject were not unlike the various opinions in this thread which I had no knowledge of until an hour ago, good topic.

Edited to add proper link!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 04:06:54 PM by Pete Dunk »
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Re: The left hand - what to do with 'Signposts'?
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2018, 05:11:59 PM »

It's been interesting reading through this old thread
It has indeed!

Quote
the box player decided he would play the melody only as he didn't like the available chords (standard D/G Pokerwork so no Am) and doesn't want to play bass notes without chords.

You can fake Am with A bass and C chord.
Also you can do a lot with basses and RH harmonies (a good way of getting round missing chord  problems)
And (IMHO) there's nothing wrong with playing bass notes without chords - either for one note that doesn't have the right chord, or even most or all of the way through the tune.

This could be a good tune of the month. It's simple enough that anyone can play it, but getting a nice articulation to it is a challenge for players at all levels, and the left hand side is open to all sorts of interpretations, so it could produce a wide and interesting variety of responses.
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