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Author Topic: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel  (Read 7138 times)

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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 02:10:36 AM »

There are at least two German videos on YouTube with people singing it and going up a semitone each verse. Translation: there is no one "right key"!

Agreeing on the latter statement I must however say that I'm profoundly detesting that formerly mentioned raising-the-pitch-with-each-verse-indulgence of German provenience... :o

(which I of course avoided in my recent contrib to the parallel topic on concertina.net)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 11:37:45 PM by blue eyed sailor »
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Roger Hare

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 06:28:01 AM »

I didn't quite understand, what's your problem. I play Vetter Michel on a 20 button concertina in C/G, starting with the first button of the right hand C row on push, that is with the note C. This is the only possible starting point for this song, if you want to play the melody unchanged.

Remember, I'm a novice, and many of my 'problems' are directly related to that fact.

My problem here is that I'm not (yet!) proficient/expert enough, either with the concertina,
or with musical theory to be able to confidently perform such a transposition 'on the fly' and
be sure that I have correctly retained the right intervals between notes so that I can play
the melody unchanged. My ear is not yet attuned quite finely enough to be able to be sure
just by listening.

For me, the fact that I was able to quickly perform such a transposition at all, and come up
with something which sounds vaguely 'right' is a major achievment in itself, and is very
encouraging - hey, maybe I can do this stuff!

You have in fact answered my main question in respect of this particular tune. Thank you!

Just before reading your post, I constructed a two-piece template, and by sliding one piece
along the other by 5 semi-tones, I had in fact confirmed that the intervals when starting on
G (left hand) on the Anglo are in fact retained when starting on C (right hand). A crude tool,
but it seems to work. So that's all right then!

Onwards and upwards...

Roger


« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 06:45:37 AM by lachenal74693 »
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Sebastian

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2015, 09:22:47 AM »

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2015, 11:18:10 PM »

There is no problem with both versions. If you have the semitone higher fell free and play it. If you don't have the semitone play the other version. There is no correct version and there are also a lot of Vedder Michels.  :D The version without the semitone higher is out of the "Kleine dicke Liederbuch" which is a quite good source.

Are these all Germans who discuss this problem? Or is it because it is a German song? Then let's play Turk's March in order to get rid of this problem.  8)
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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2015, 11:44:55 PM »

To avoid a possible misunderstanding; I wasn't talking about the "two versions" (if they're existing at all; I'm aware of those dots without the sharp, not sure if it's not just a fault there, but I wouldn't mind anyways).

I was referring to a post talking about raising the pitch with every next verse (and believe me, there are lots of them), and that is a habit common in Germany whith many songs (which I happen to dislike myself, as I was saying).
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Anahata

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2015, 01:25:40 AM »

I was referring to a post talking about raising the pitch with every next verse (and believe me, there are lots of them), and that is a habit common in Germany

Not just Germany, it's a cheap trick with pop songs everywhere, one I usually take as an indication that the composer or arranger has run out of ideas to keep the listener's interest in a boring tune.

(Oh dear, that doesn't reflect well on my version in three different keys...)
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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2015, 08:04:38 AM »

(Oh dear, that doesn't reflect well on my version in three different keys...)

Well, I'd guess your excuse would be being a Melodeon player...  :||:

(demonstrating the tonal and musical abilities of a given instrument, and creating elegant modulations or transisitions for that purpose)

(nice "Turkish" ending by the way...)

Best wishes - Wolf
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Sebastian

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2015, 12:07:08 PM »

it's a cheap trick with pop songs everywhere, one I usually take as an indication that the composer or arranger has run out of ideas to keep the listener's interest in a boring tune.
Some years ago I visited a "patriotic evening", a play under the pleasant title "Murx den Europäer! Murx ihn! Murx ihn! Murx ihn! Murx ihn ab!", and was charmed by the presentation of the song "Danke für diesen guten Morgen" (a song every german was tortured with), where this artifice was used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9P_LzQK_8M
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 12:09:19 PM by Sebastian »
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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2015, 05:44:48 PM »

Sebastian, this song was exactly what I'd been thinking of as my worst example of this technique commonly used, one of quite a few features making a song which is not necessarily awful a really bad experience - the video really sums it up... :D

Best wishes - Wolf
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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2015, 10:01:17 PM »

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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2015, 11:17:15 PM »

So here's my very first contribution here, played following week of some (not too much unfortunately) spare time with my luckily found Bb/Eb Preciosa, never mind the issues of the instrument (no hints needed I guess :D) - after reading Mitch's "cross posting" on concertina.net I deciced to give the tune which I recorded four times with the English Concertina this month a go on melodeon too, ran through it practising for about half an hour and then recorded a short version (just AABB) before the midnight hour had come, and posted it here still in the month of June in the UK at least:

Vedder Michel

Please bear with me just having taken up the melodeon again - any comments appreciated! Best wishes - Wolf
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Clive Williams

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2015, 12:29:09 AM »

Welcome back to the melodeon world Wolf - nice to have you posting here too. That brings this month to an end folks; onto the next tune! Late entries welcome as ever - just stick them on the end here.

Cheers,

Clive

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2015, 08:23:15 AM »

It's just been brought to my attention that Vedder Michel is actually an English tune called the Turks March. See http://abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=www.andyhornby.net/Music/WINDER.ABC/0146 for example. Also Jackson (1823) and Aird (1785). Good reference and history is on this page: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/TU.htm
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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2015, 09:19:30 AM »

It's just been brought to my attention that Vedder Michel is actually an English tune called the Turks March. See http://abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=www.andyhornby.net/Music/WINDER.ABC/0146 for example. Also Jackson (1823) and Aird (1785). Good reference and history is on this page: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/TU.htm

That's interesting as I had been aware of that Turk's March being parallel from the discussion at concertina.net, but without evidence as to which one might have been the original one..., will go into that matter I guess... in terms of history but also the musical variants...

Clive, thanks a lot for the welcome and attention, I really appreciate that!

Best wishes - Wolf
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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2015, 09:37:05 AM »

Hi folks,

Late again ... https://youtu.be/elPD2ki_Meo

For this tune, I dare to use some odd chords. I got them by ear (what sounded good). But after realizing the chords that I used, I notice that for example the F chord, which I use a lot, is not even part of the G major scale (ok, it's a myxolydian mode...). Anyway, I would appreciate to hear your comments on this. I know a bit of musical theory, but it's hard to apply it, specially on the melodeon.

The chords I used were:
Part A
G - D - G/c - DG
G/e (Em) - F - GDG
Part B
G - Am - F - D
G/e (Em) - F - GDG

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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2015, 09:45:06 AM »

Hi folks,

Late again ... https://youtu.be/elPD2ki_Meo

For this tune, I dare to use some odd chords. I got them by ear (what sounded good). But after realizing the chords that I used, I notice that for example the F chord, which I use a lot, is not even part of the G major scale (ok, it's a myxolydian mode...). Anyway, I would appreciate to hear your comments on this. I know a bit of musical theory, but it's hard to apply it, specially on the melodeon.

The chords I used were:
Part A
G - D - G/c - DG
G/e (Em) - F - GDG
Part B
G - Am - F - D
G/e (Em) - F - GDG

Seems interesting (all the more as Mixolydian is my favourite mode and can in fact be forcefully applied to melodies which don't have the minor seventh; however in this case the major seventh is quite prominent in the tune, so your version would have to - deliberately - deal with ambiguity, as lots of Irish tunes do anyway) - unfortunately I'll have to wait until evening to give your track a go and presumably further comment...

Best wishes - Wolf
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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2015, 10:05:43 AM »

@blue eyed sailor: Thank you for your comments!

When you say "all the more as Mixolydian is my favourite mode and can in fact be forcefully applied to melodies which don't have the minor seventh"; you actually meant major seventh, right?

I think I understand your point, and that was the reason why I was a bit surprised when I realized the chords I used "by ear". Anyway, I think every time I used the minor 7th chord; there was no major 7th note on that measure; otherwise it would crash for sure :)

Any further comment would be much appreciated. Thanks!



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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Tune of the Month for June 2015: Vedder Michel
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2015, 11:52:30 AM »

@blue eyed sailor: Thank you for your comments!

When you say "all the more as Mixolydian is my favourite mode and can in fact be forcefully applied to melodies which don't have the minor seventh"; you actually meant major seventh, right?

No, I meant it as written - implicitly taken your statement for granted. Thus I should have said like: "...and can in fact be forcefully applied even to melodies which don't have any seventh."

A Mixolydian melody usually suggests (if any at all) Mixolydian accompaniment, but there are pentatonic or hexatonic melodies which are simply lacking any seventh (here's an example with prominent use of the VII (b)-chord - Bb in that case - from my own repertoire). This is where an otherwise ambiguous tune can get transformed into the Mixolydian mode just through harmony being applied, instead of the Ionian mode as more likely expected, which would end the ambiguity too of course). *

I think I understand your point, and that was the reason why I was a bit surprised when I realized the chords I used "by ear". Anyway, I think every time I used the minor 7th chord; there was no major 7th note on that measure; otherwise it would crash for sure :)

That's true. However, I've not yet figured out what to think of your entire arrangement, apart from it being unusual and therefore interesting - but the use of the VIIb chord works in fact surprisingly well to my ears.

Any further comment would be much appreciated. Thanks!

I will come back to this subject any time soon.

Best wishes - Wolf

* Precautionarily I should declare that I'm aware of the fact that f.i. Jack (Campin) might object in approaching this "modal" subject the way I do, myself avoiding full complexity for practical purposes... (:)
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