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Poll

Just curious, do you mostly learn tunes by:

Ear?
- 21 (21.4%)
"Dots"
- 15 (15.3%)
Tablature?
- 0 (0%)
Both 1 and 2?
- 42 (42.9%)
Both 1 and 3
- 5 (5.1%)
All of the above?
- 10 (10.2%)
Heavenly Muses?
- 0 (0%)
Other. (Please explain)
- 5 (5.1%)

Total Members Voted: 97


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Author Topic: How do you learn tunes?  (Read 31345 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2015, 10:15:19 AM »

To pick up on Anahata's point - an orcestra will commonly work from dots.  But soloists always learn the piece, and express it from the heart. As such we might be talking about the wrong organ in this?

Nor should music (jingles in video games, maybe an exception ;)) become just a a series of notes. I frankly don't care whether the 'tokens' (which is they are) come as ABC, Tab or on a stave. They are an aide memoire wrt playing the stuff.

That's not to say one cannot 'learn' a note sequence from all three, by ear, whatever (which was how we started)?  For myself if I learn purely by ear … I tend to absorb a simpler version. So reference back to something written, or better, source is no bad thing :|glug
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Mike Hirst

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2015, 10:43:07 AM »

Something that has cropped up in several posts in this thread is a suggestion that sight reading is a skill exclusively linked to classical training. Whilst it is undoubtedly a key element of that practice, it has to be emphasised that musical literacy has had a currency amongst traditional musicians for at least the last 300 years. The large number of handwritten manuscripts which exist in Northumberland, Durham and other Northern counties is proof of this. It is important also to note that these manuscripts were often passed from one musician to another, either as a mark of respect, or as an element of family tradition.

The Clough family of Blyth would host Sunday night gatherings at which small pipers would play through tunes from written manuscrpts. Within my own experience in the 1970s I would visit concertina player Dan Wilshaw of Wheelock, with Dave Leese. Dan played exclusively from music, as had is father and brother when they played as a trio for dances up and down the canals before the first world war.

Other examples of dot players contributing to tradition would include a manuscript of band part arrangements for flutina, which is now in the Beamish museum collection and the arrangements used by the Mexborough English Concertina Prize Band.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 02:20:09 PM by Mike Hirst »
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Roger Howard

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2015, 12:23:36 PM »

it has to be emphasised that musical literacy has had a currency amongst traditional musicians for at least the last 300 years. The large number of handwritten manuscripts which exist in Northumberland, Durham and other Northern counties is proof of this. It is important also to note that these manuscripts were often passed from one musician to another, either as a mark of respect, or as an element of family tradition.

Absolutely - and the currency continues to this day.

I thought, though, that this was about how someone learns a tune, not how someone plays it. Learning from notation is not the same as playing from it.

For what it's worth, I think of it like this. When I plan a walk in unfamiliar country for the first time, I use a map. Certainly, it's a limited form of notation - it doesn't tell me anything about most of the things which make a specific walk enjoyable - the sun, the clouds, the colours of the trees, the wildlife etc etc - but also it doesn't preclude the detours, shortcuts, pauses to watch the hares or a buzzard, stops for a chat or food, and so forth which are  also an important part of the walk. And when I've done the walk a few times, I don't need the map. Musical notation seems to me a kind of map: it helps me find the way. Certainly, it only provides the basic route, but when I've learnt that, I don't need the map, and I don't need to follow the route slavishly. Exactly the same applies to tablature, which is only the usual stave with annotations. If Stéphane Delicq used tablature to teach the instrument, I'm happy to use it to learn.

Playing solely by ear may be a skill which anyone can learn (though I have my doubts). Now that I'm in what I'm told is likely to be the last 10% of my life, it's not a high priority for me: partitions and tablatures will do for me.

Now, back to a more immediate priority: boat restoration!  ;)
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2015, 01:27:15 PM »

Back in the days when I was starting to play the Leicestershire small pipes I used dots to learn the tunes. When I visited Julian Goodacre for some lessons, his  first comment was that I was playing in black and white, and had to learn how to play in colour.

I find dots useful to learn the basic structure of a tune, but learning to play a tune only comes after I put the dots away.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2015, 01:41:21 PM »

The way I think of it is that when you are learning to play a tune, you first need to commit a lot of structure stuff to your memory.  You can do this using a combination of close listening to recordings, understanding the melody and accompaniment, reading some form of notation, and physical practice.  Even for those clever people who have trained themselves to play directly from notation (and I wish I were one of them!), practising the piece still helps them through the process.

But the important bit is what you learn after you think you know it.
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deltasalmon

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2015, 01:41:37 PM »

I agree with the last few posts. I don't learn tunes from notation but I definitely find notation a useful tool while learning a tune from a recording. Even if the notation isn't an exact note-for-note transcription of the recording and there are minor differences I find it useful to use. I suppose more experienced players who have great control of the instrument can hear music and know exactly how to make it come out on their instrument but for me there is still a lot of trial and error when learning just by ear since I'm learning how to play the instrument itself along with learning how to play the tunes. Using notation as a guide speeds up the process of learning a tune.
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2015, 01:42:33 PM »

The recent posts about written music being used in a traditional context to record, preserve and pass on tunes - or as personal collections used by musicians as an aide-memoire are of course very true and remain as permanent snapshots of repertoires from an age before recording, making them invaluable for those of us who like to play old tunes.  I wasn't dismissing written music as a bad thing at all.

The point of view I expressed earlier on is one that is (deliberately?) provocative.  I have stuck with it to provide a balance to the overwhelming number of snide remarks about the way I learn pieces of music from people who have grown up through the classical system and are mediocre musicians who happen to have a piece of paper telling them they are brilliant.  The fact is that there are a tiny percentage of classical musicians who justify the whole process at the top - but thousands of very musically limited music teachers who have a massive vested interest in telling everyone that they need to be able to read music and learn scales and arpeggios in exactly the right way in order to be a musician.  It's a massive lie, and one which, unfortunately, the vast majority of people believe, leaving them to say things like "oh me? I'm tone deaf" or "Well I used to play, but I'm not really musical" and spending the rest of their lives missing out on something which I think is such an important part of life.

I'm heartened and a little surprised that the semi-rant met with some agreement.  Most times I say it, people think I'm mad!  One of the brilliant things about the melodeon is that it's such a "way-out" instrument that it conveniently by-passes all the BS that goes with the classical music education system and I find that in general players of our instrument tend to have a much better rounded approach to music as a whole.
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2015, 01:43:57 PM »

I think Mike has made an excellent point about musicians gone by.
Thank you for reminding me about the old manuscripts, it makes the point well that without them we would be really stuck for current source material. I tend to forget how literate the past musicians were.

Bit like driving a car, you always look ahead, but an occasional look in the rear view mirror can make all the difference and remind you where you've been.
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Anahata

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2015, 01:49:33 PM »

To answer the original question: I can pick up most of a tune at first hearing a few times though in a session, but 2 minutes later I've typically forgotten every note of it (obviously a different memory process in play).
I have learnt tunes purely by ear when they are played regularly in a weekly session, but it takes quite a long time, and on my own I can't trust myself to have learnt every note correctly. Nor would I feel comfortable writing them down, not because I can't do it, but because I still wouldn't be sure I had it correct.
So I do need dots if I want to be confident that I have it right.

I was playing in black and white, and had to learn how to play in colour.
I like that!

Quote
I find dots useful to learn the basic structure of a tune, but learning to play a tune only comes after I put the dots away.
When playing from dots to learn a tune, I think I'm mostly developing muscle memory.
I hear and play a tune differently once I am off the dots. Not only musically differently, but different notes sometimes. It can be a shock when I find the dots again and see how much I've changed it.

In a similar thread earlier, some folks said they listen to a recording constantly e.g. in the car to get thoroughly familiar with a tune so they could sing it through even before they could play it. I am going to try that, but I suspect I'll still need a two pronged approach with written music as well.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 03:21:34 PM by Anahata »
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Chris Brimley

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2015, 02:18:35 PM »

My youngest daughter had two music teachers - her clarinet teacher 'got her through' (horrible phrase) her Grade 8 exams.  She passed them about 10 years ago, put the clarinet down, and there it is still in the corner of room, gathering dust.  Her (unique) piano teacher on the other hand said you don't need to do exams if you don't want to. So she hasn't passed a single test, but she has become accomplished at sight-reading scores on the piano, just for fun.  She frequently plays piano to herself (I particularly like her wacky version of Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody, though I'm not normally allowed to listen), and whenever she returns home, I try to tune up the huge and cracked old grand piano that her piano teacher (very generously!) gave us for her to play, so that she can have a good bash.

When you listen to a tune, it's really hard to take it all in, because there's so much going on at once, and our ears are good at smoothing out the tricky bits.  A melodeon is indeed a great instrument for reaching the innate musical nature in all of us, but that is both its strength and weakness - I personally wouldn't be satisfied if that meant missing out on the interesting harmonies (and let's face it, 'right' notes) that musical notation makes it much easier to learn to play.  Traditional musicians were indeed often very clever and had fine ears.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2015, 02:42:44 PM »

Said this before  I was one of 4, the only one who didn't get music lessons - guess what ;) So my own lttle ones had to 'ask' for music lessons. That worked and they all play, by ear.

A related topic >:E is can you name the notes on the keyboard? I have picked it up over about 15 years, but I still  have to think about some of the squeakier ones.

I've also tried to learn dots - am slow but I get there - and it's useful for complicated corners in tunes. Hope it's acceptable to say this  - I do perceive musicians who play only from printed music as a bit handicapped (apologies, but). A couple at George's Whitby teach-ins didn't seem to progress over the week. But push-pull melodeon doesn't map across too well does it? Maybe it is us who are handicapped?
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Bob Ellis

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2015, 02:49:18 PM »

Having come to this thread late (due to being too busy playing music  ;)), I agree fairly closely with Anahata's well-expressed views and I like Roger's analogy of taking a walk in unfamiliar country. I can see where Squeezy is coming from, but he is in danger of treating the use of sheet music as being synonymous with the teaching of music in schools and in other forms of classical music training. While learning to read music is a significant element of music taught in schools and by classical music teachers, it has a life beyond that and should not be disparaged because of the uses to which it is put in those contexts.

Personally, I have never understood the views expressed by some that extol the virtues of learning by ear over learning from sheet music, or vice versa. Learning a tune from sheet music involves learning by ear as well: you need to use your ear to interpret the notes you see on the page and to turn them from a simple sequence of notes into music that lives, breathes and expresses emotion.

My own method of learning tunes is, of course, not the only way of doing so, but it illustrates the interaction that takes place between reading the dots and using your ears that must take place in some form or other for everyone who aspires to turn notes written on a printed (or digital) page into 'music.' I never start with the sheet music. I hear a tune in a session, on a CD, or wherever and decide that I like it and want to play it. I may pick out the rough tune by playing along in a session or with the CD but, as Anahata has said, the chances of remembering the tune the following day are remote. It takes a lot of repetition to get a tune into my head so that it will stay there, far more repetitions than occur in a session. Furthermore, I will pick out the tune probably playing along the row and with a fairly basic 'three-chord-trick' bass accompaniment. But I have two or three different buttons on which I can play most notes on my 2.6 row and 3 row boxes and, with 12 or 14 bass buttons, much more interesting bass lines are possible. This is where the sheet music comes in. I use it to explore how I want to interpret the tune, which buttons to use, which basses and where to ornament it. I will then write this down and use it as an aide-mémoire until I have internalised the tune. This stage requires a combination of using the sheet music and using my ears to determine how I want the tune to sound. When I have internalised my interpretation, I hardly ever look at the sheet music again (unless I forget part of it.) The tune will continue to develop, but will do so, not from the sheet music, but from within my mind and from what I hear when I play it.

I have heard friends describe me as somebody who 'plays from the dots', but I would describe myself as somebody who plays by ear whilst using the dots as an aid to help me do so.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2015, 03:05:13 PM »

Snap, Bob.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2015, 03:15:27 PM »

Historical context may be useful here.

Compare the teachings of Friedrich Niedt with Fedele Fenaroli and Giovanni Furno. On the one hand we have the German method, a rigid and unbending kind of musical sudoku; on the other hand we have the Italian approach which proposes the regola dell'ottava as starting point for creative exploration.

There is evidence to suggest that Niedt's books were produced to supply a demand among the educated elite, whereas the Italian masters were printing material as an adjunct to a musical apprentice scheme. That is to say, thats Niedt's written works describe a framework for basic functionality, but the Italian publications provide a toolset for professional music making.

WRT the current thread I would not dismiss notation as an important tool for learning, but I would highlight the need to interpret and extend the notated melodies, rather than to reproduce them verbatim.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 03:17:15 PM by Mike Hirst »
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Mike Carney

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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2015, 03:38:05 PM »

Thanks for your post, Bob. I'm with you. Pretty much the same approach. I don't consider a tune learnt until it is inside me and can be produced and enjoyed without the aid of notation.
Up to seeing your post I had found the discussion pretty depressing. This topic seems to come up with regularity in one guise or another and I know I don't have to read it but it is hard not to do so.
Apart from certain familiar positions being rehashed by some members what I think is new is the angle  of people's experiences of being put off music in earlier years, often at school.  It is a shame the joy of music is so often omitted in the learning!
M
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2015, 03:47:57 PM »

Using letters is such a narrow and un-natural way of espressing yourself.
err... isn't that what we are all doing here, now, on this forum?
Oh, really? Thank you for reminding me.
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2015, 04:18:43 PM »

All the tunes I play have to be learned by heart because they have to be played without sheet music or any other form of memory assistance.

For me there are two very different levels of difficulty in learning a tune.

The difference is that although picking up tunes by ear and playing them on a fifth-tuned stringed instrument is a piece of cake, doing exactly the same thing on a my semitone boxes isn't. 

It takes far longer, so using notation saves a lot of time that would otherwise be spent trying to decrypt the more complicated or difficult parts of the tune.  What happens to the tune once I've learned it is another matter - they all seem to evolve a bit.
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2015, 04:25:56 PM »

Using letters is such a narrow and un-natural way of espressing yourself.

There is an element of truth in that statement.  Chatting like this in print is an un-natural form of expression and is less good than speaking for expressing nuances of meaning, and is famously open to misinterpretation.  That is not to say that print is useless, just that different forms of communication have their advantages and disadvantages depending on context.  Analogous in some ways to different processes in learning music.   (:)
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2015, 05:13:33 PM »

Ear only. Dots are Greek to me and tab or ABC simply confuse me. If I listen to a tune a couple times I can generally play it fine on guitar, mando, or fiddle. Then, when the tune is firmly in my head, I begin to worry it out on melodeon. That may take a week or more - but I am getting better.  :Ph
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Re: How do you learn tunes?
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2015, 11:46:49 PM »

I was interested in George's comment that he has taught some people who read music to play by ear.
George, are there steps you use to achieve this?
For some tunes, I try to memorise line by line, then of course the fingers take over and develop their own memory. I'm thinking here more of whistle tunes, which I've committed to memory (of some sort) for my busking adventures.
Starting from 'ear' I'm more likely to grab the harmonica. I don't 'connect' the dots and the harmonica so automatically.
George?
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