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Ear?

21 (21.4%)

"Dots"

15 (15.3%)

Tablature?

0 (0%)

Both 1 and 2?

42 (42.9%)

Both 1 and 3

5 (5.1%)

All of the above?

10 (10.2%)

Heavenly Muses?

0 (0%)

Other. (Please explain)

5 (5.1%)

Total Members Voted: 97

[Chris Brimley]

And, just for the record, all this "why" stuff is EXACTLY what the OP had intended. 😈

Apologies, Grape Ape, for my wrong assumption!   

In that case, and at the risk of restating the obvious:

I am really surprised from recent posts to find that ABC isn't generally used for learning, because if that's the case, I have to say I can't quite understand why it seems to have become the preferred notation system on melnet, or why it's in such common use.  Surely the traditional musical score system can do everything that ABC can, and it also has the considerable ergonomic advantages of being easy to visualise chords,  timing, and 'up' and 'down' in pitch?  When reading a score note, you therefore soon get to miss out the middle stage of naming it mentally, it just immediately transfers in your mind to the button. It seems to me that perhaps many players may have started out being shy of learning which notes are which on a stave, (which might have taken them maybe an hour or two) and therefore rejected the whole system forever without giving it a fair chance.  Having the middle three lines of a treble clef stave as the 'push' of the G major triad G, B, and D on a G row box is a happy additional learning advantage for boxes in G.

Isn't another major consideration that there are now plenty enough easy-to-use and free score programs around that the need still to use text to do the job has been rather superseded?  (I'm going to argue against myself here slightly by saying that it would be nice if melnet allowed pdf's of scores to be attached without the current somewhat restrictive file-size limitation, but this is surely a very simple problem to get round.)

Sorry, but after all this, I just don't buy the notion that musical scores are evil!
 

[Chris Ryall]

I disagree with Нэргүй saying it is an alternative system;  …

all the systems are surely alternatives, and in the end they all map to 'music'.

Sorry, but after all this, I just don't buy the notion that musical scores are evil!

Satie's 'Vexations' is said to get pretty close to it … enharmonic notation, single page piece … er … 840 repeats?

[Thrupenny Bit]

Returning to the OP's question I find:-
If I learn a tune incredibly quickly with almost no effort involved I find it can leave my brain with equal rapidity!
If I really work at a tune because I really want to learn it, I find it sticks much more.

In my days when I taught sub aqua diving I found similar things happened in the pool. Those that immediately got a skill easy peasy often became slack at the practised skill quickly, whereas those that worked at the skill retained it and often improved it with practise.
The learning process is quite an interesting subject in itself.
Q

[Anahata]

I am really surprised from recent posts to find that ABC isn't generally used for learning

Maybe ABC wasn't mentioned directly even when used - e.g. I said I need the dots to help me learn a tune, but implicit in that was that I use ABC as a tool for creating the dots. Even if I find an online image of a printed page I almost invariably transcribe it with ABC.
Others may use the ABC to play though their computer speakers if there isn't a sound recording available, but say they learn "by ear"

I think the psychology of 'by' ear vs. 'from the dots' is fascinating, and what means was used to provide the dots or the sound is irrelevant.

Isn't another major consideration that there are now plenty enough easy-to-use and free score programs around that the need still to use text to do the job has been rather superseded?

Text carries a lot more useful information than most other methods. Proper use of the ABC headers is valuable to anyone with any interest in sources and origins. I like the editability of text. ABC is easy to transpose and manipulate in lots of ways, and searchable.

Examples:

• I have occasionally managed to find the title of a tune I'd only heard, played by someone who didn't know its name, by doing a Google search for guessed ABC notation of part of the tune - you couldn't do that with a more graphical representation. (I doubt that an XML format would have worked either)
• someone sent me a graphic for the tune of a song to publish in Mardles magazine. The graphic was the wrong shape and wouldn't have looked right whatever I did with it. I manually transcribed it to ABC and was able to fit the generated image (abcm2ps and then convert .ps to image) on the page exactly the way I wanted it.

[Anahata]

what really stands out for me is that the tunes I learn by ear are forever committed to memory, and instantly so, where some of those learned by tab are still not commited to memory months later.

Seeing this thread has convinced me there is no shame in playing by ear and from the heart, and that it may even be ideal.

That's a very interesting insight.
I must have a printed copy of a tune somewhere though, or I will forget it.

The learning process is quite an interesting subject in itself.

Ain't that the truth ! 

[Chris Brimley]

Whist I might wish to comment on your detailed points, Anahata, isn't the 'proof of the pudding' argument the telling one?  I've previously believed that ABC is 'commonly used'  in traditional music, but the poll is suggesting otherwise!

I don't think anyone is suggesting that playing from sight during performance is a worthy aim, I think we're just discussing the merits of different methods of learning, or remembering, how to play pieces of music.  I agree that pure sight reading (of whatever notation is used) in performance actually hinders the learning process in many ways.  That's not to say that sight reading of some parts of written music (notation or mnemonics) during (or immediately before) performance isn't useful.

[TomBom]

Whist I might wish to comment on your detailed points, Anahata, isn't the 'proof of the pudding' argument the telling one?  I've previously believed that ABC is 'commonly used'  in traditional music, but the poll is suggesting otherwise!

I don't think this poll can tell us how much usage ABC gets in folk music.

What is the point in discussing ABC?

This is just a code for getting music notation or midi files. Everybody can use it via online converters without installing any programmes. There are quite a lot of advantages.
Better to continue this kind of discussion in the new ABC child board

[Andrew Wigglesworth]

On the arcs of mathematics, what it means to be a computer and what it means to be a human, text notation like ABC is the most useful intersect.

You might as well ask why do we still need to program computers.

Computers don't have any idea about music. In fact, they have no ideas about anything. Computers don't play music, they simply compute.

So, for something that is easily transferable between systems, can be trivially manipulated programmatically and mathematically by a computer and encoded into different forms, something that every general computing system in the world can represent, and that human beings can also trivially interpret ... the tried and tested form of text is the thing.

[Lester]

This is just a code for getting music notation or midi files.

Nope, I use it 'raw' and I'm sure I can't be the only one.

[TomBom]

This is just a code for getting music notation or midi files.

Nope, I use it 'raw' and I'm sure I can't be the only one.

Well, I know from reading your posts. Just my crude attempt to (over)simplify for people not using ABC ...
I can play (slowly) from ABC but I am  a good sight reader - and as Stiamh said: it's so easy to convert it to notation.

[Chris Brimley]

I disagree Chris. The poll isn't designed to answer that question.

Which was the reason for my earlier query:

I've just gone back to remind myself of the original question.  Does ABC come under ' "dots" ', 'tab', or 'other'?  Very few people say they use it, if 'other'.  Are we absolutely sure that's right?

But also I don't quite understand your next comment - is the emerging consensus that ABC is actually being used by players mainly as a data entry tool, rather than a learning tool?  In which case, have you tried MuseScore for example, for this?  By all means enter the note names that way - and because the letters A-G all happen to fall under the LH on a computer keyboard, and the note lengths can be entered using the RH, it's remarkably quick to do, with a short learning curve. 

[arty]

Seeing this thread has convinced me there is no shame in playing by ear and from the heart, and that it may even be ideal.

If I may throw in my three ha'pence...

Why would anyone feel shame in playing by ear and from the heart? To my mind this is the ideal, it is what gives you room for freedom of expression and to put your own personal stamp on one's playing. When playing from memory, it is also far easier to listen to yourself playing as opposed to when you are concentrating on reading a score.




 

[Anahata]

is the emerging consensus that ABC is actually being used by players mainly as a data entry tool, rather than a learning tool?

I'd say not so much "emerging" as implicit from the start.

[Chris Brimley]

Absolutely Arty, but 'cribsheets remember what the heart forgets.'

(To paraphrase Boo Hewerdine's lyrics in his great song 'Please Don't Ask Me to Dance')

[nigelr]

Seeing this thread has convinced me there is no shame in playing by ear and from the heart, and that it may even be ideal.

If I may throw in my three ha'pence...

Why would anyone feel shame in playing by ear and from the heart? To my mind this is the ideal, it is what gives you room for freedom of expression and to put your own personal stamp on one's playing. When playing from memory, it is also far easier to listen to yourself playing as opposed to when you are concentrating on reading a score.

I think what has possibly become evident from this thread is that how you learn a tune and how you get good at performing a tune are distinct parts of the overall process.  The first can be done by ear or dots depending on where you started from - I default to the dots because of x number of years of piano tuition and a classical method background. However, to properly perform a tune then I agree it has to be internalised. What is wrong is to make someone feel "shame" in how they learn - either as a dot user who struggles to play by ear (which has happened to me - I was once openly criticised at a session for using dots, which as a session newbie really knocked me) or as an ear player who can't read music.  At least music is being learned and played - that is the important bit!  Good job we're all different

[Stiamh]

In which case, have you tried MuseScore for example, for this?  By all means enter the note names that way - and because the letters A-G all happen to fall under the LH on a computer keyboard, and the note lengths can be entered using the RH, it's remarkably quick to do, with a short learning curve. 

I think you should move this discussion to the ABC board, Chris. You seem to be resisting ABC - fine, but you know it's futile...

I resisted it myself when a friend urged it upon me in the 1990s as a good way to share and print scores. At that time I resented the tendency for all leisure and artistic activities, from photography to recipes, to become computer-based, and I was determined to remain faithful to pencil, manuscript paper and photocopies and not to have to use the computer for yet another non-work activity.

I caved in 15 years ago when I wanted to produce notation for use on webpages and soon became sold on ABC.

Embracing ABC as a useful tool in no way undermines conventional notation. Quite the opposite in fact. It's merely a simple, text-based, platform-independent standard free of proprietary issues and can be used with many free software programmes or (as Lester does) with none at all.

Let the bee out of your bonnet - you'll enjoy the silence 

[TomBom]

Seeing this thread has convinced me there is no shame in playing by ear and from the heart, and that it may even be ideal.

That's a good summary, Frank! I consider learning by ear superior to learning from reading music. I am one of those who started playing classical music for quite a few years. So I can play quite well from written music - at least playing mandolin, guitar or banjo; not so well on melodeon I have to admit. And because sight reading is a natural thing for me I keep learning tunes from notation, ideally combined with listening to a recording. Usually I learn from the 'dots' to be able to play the tune and Iadapt it to melodeon. After that I have to remember it, which is a lot of work. I tend to forget tunes I learned from notation. On the other hand it takes a very long time for me to learn a tune by ear, because I am not used to it. In the long run it's going to be far more efficient and musically rewarding to learn folk tunes by ear.

[TomBom]

Reading Nigelr's post I want to add that by learning from notation it is so easy to stop the process of 'owning' a tune when you are able to play it.
When I learn a tune by ear I seem to combine learning to play the tune and adapting it to my instrument at the same time.

[Anahata]

Musescore has recently become useful - cross platform, free and reasonably bug-free music editing tool, but it's not been around as long as ABC has.
But comparative discussion of music software should be in another (sub)forum - it has no place here.

[Chris Brimley]

No bees, here, I hope, Stiamh! - just trying to understand and discuss what box-players are doing, in the light of these poll findings so far, and make sense of it all.  I don't personally find ABC of great use, but I've always thought others do, and for that reason it seemed to merit attention, if only to understand why.  People do seem to say ABC is a great boon, but it also has to be said it seems from this thread as if it's not being used all that much for learning tunes, and opinions seem pretty divided as to the purposes.  I'm also trying to understand why many box players don't seem to like traditional music scores, sometimes quite vehemently (and I say 'traditional' because they have unquestionably been around for a very long time).  If ABC is as some say just a way of transmitting musical data in a proprietary-platform-free way, well fine, but wouldn't say a pdf of a score, or a link to one, do just as well, if not better, for learning purposes? 

And Anahata, the OP has said that 'why' was his original intention in raising the issue, which I would have thought implies comparisons between alternatives - hopefully on the level of effectiveness rather than technicality, though.