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Author Topic: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...  (Read 3872 times)

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Roger Hare

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Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« on: June 22, 2015, 04:58:36 AM »

Hello. I just signed up to melodeon.net and I'd like to canvass opinions
on the suitability of the Castagnari Lilly as a first melodeon. I saw one
on a sailing trip last week and was fascinated by the small size, and
sweet tone of the instrument.

I'm a (relative) novice on the concertina, but I already have four, and
I'm thinking seriously about acquiring a melodeon (as implied above). As
you will realise, I have a terminal case of free-reed-itis!

I'm also interested in sailing and Japanese Chess (not at the same time
of course!).

My melodeon.net ID is the make and serial number of my first 'tina.

Roger Hare
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2015, 06:23:09 AM »

Good morning Roger and welcome to the forum. You couldn't have joined a better one. Although I can't advise you on the lily (I don't have one) from what I have read they are superb instruments. Anyway there are many folks here who will give you plenty of info.
Good luck with your Mel career.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 06:40:03 AM »

Echo Nick on "forum" - this is a great place. 

My own first proper box (I had a hohner for 6 months, also a Linota :D) … was a Lily and I love(d) it to bits. The single voice makes it very fast, and also a great box to learn right hand chords on. It's light and robust. Mine went to to Italyin a motor bike pannier and to Oz in a more traditional way.  It's the one box I've not had the heart to sell on.

Warning - lilys are very squeeky in the upper octave in D/G tuning. Fine in G/C manifestation, but if you are used to 'tina's … it's the same issue. Consider "4th button start" if you buy D/G. Have converted mine
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 06:46:32 AM by Chris Ryall »
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 07:46:17 AM »

Hi Roger and welcome,
Fourth button start, in simple terms, moves the instrument scale down one note.  You lose the top note from each scale and gain one at the lower end. More detailed descriptions will invariably follow!
The scale moves one button to the right, so the G and D on a D/G box move from the normal third button from the chin to the fourth button. 
Normally a job for a technician. 
Both boxes are good.  They sound a lot different   You will probably end up with both.  >:E you should aim to try them, or at least listen to each.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 07:50:05 AM »

I'm also considering a Hohner Pokerwork as a start-up instrument - any
views on that please?

Also what does 4th button start mean? I have seen this term but can't
see any explanation. I have seen instruments advertised with 3rd button
start.
A Hohner Pokerwork is an ideal beginner's instrument and much cheaper than a Castagnari Lily. The latter is a single voice instrument (one reed per note) so it produces a very 'clean', pure sound much like a concertina, so you might be attracted to that idea. However some people think the Lily is too strident, especially a D/G instrument; the lower-pitched A/D or G/C instruments are more mellow.

The Hohner Pokerwork is a 2-voice instrument (two reeds per note) usually tuned to give a greater or lesser degree of tremolo which really is one of the characteristics of a melodeon sound.

Fourth-button start refers to the position of the key note on each row, counting from the chin-end. In a D/G instrument which is normally played mostly in the lower octave the advantage is that you get an extra (useful) pair of buttons at the low-pitched end and similarly lose the very highest-pitched pair from the knee end. On both the Pokerwork and Lily, the factory standard is for 3rd-button start. If you want 4th-button start you will need to look for a an instrument which has already been customised, or choose a make (e.g. Saltarelle) which are often 4th-button start by default.

G/C instruments are played mostly in the upper (knee-end) octave and a 4th button start would be a disadvantage as you would lose useful notes.

Here are a couple of D/G layouts to compare 3rd and 4th button starts.
Standard 3rd-button start
Customised 4th-button start

Edit: Malcolm was posting much the same explanation as me while I was writing my post!
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 07:51:50 AM »

See here for 4th button start. On a CG the scales start 3 buttons from the head.  The way reeds work, this tends to make 2nd octave in DG almost unusably squeeky. There is consensus (and a vote) here to specify the D and G notes to be on button 4 of the rows, and extend the scale down by 2 notes. I have it now on both my DGs

Several manufacturers now use it as their GB standard and i'm told that includes Castagnari. I got no response when I wrote to Hohner with our poll result. That means paying for modification, my (1986) lily cost about £120.

Do consider the Loffet tou-p'tit, a lily mimic. http://diato.org/accordeons_loffet.htm#petit Bernard is basically a reed-smith and would I'm sure do 4th start at no extra cost.

Also always consider 2nd hand for first box. Your needs will change with experience. Agree with Steve wrt pokerwork. I learned on one
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 08:01:31 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Helena Handcart

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 08:38:59 AM »

Both boxes are good.  They sound a lot different   You will probably end up with both.  >:E you should aim to try them, or at least listen to each.

Agreed. I started out with a Hohner pokerwork but now (mostly) play a Lilly.  Both are now converted to 4th button start G scale layout and the Lilly has the thirds out.

The pokerwork is an ideal starter box as it is eminently playable but still affordable - bought second hand they generally hold their value so you are likely to get your money back if you find the whole melodeon thing is not for you.  This is especially true for the German built ones which are generally more highly regarded than the modern Chinese made ones. 

 
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Lester

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 08:42:09 AM »

Helena Handcart

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 08:44:24 AM »

*cough*

If that's still available then I know someone who wants it - I think he has already contacted but it is currently reserved?  If not please let me know....
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Lester

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 09:03:50 AM »

No it's no longer reserved as the prospective buyer pulled out.

ACE

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 09:04:45 AM »

Don't get seduced by the Castagnari name, excellent instuments but there are alternatives. I am a concertina player but my first instrument will always be a melodeon. Playing my concertina once at a session I was offered a go on a Lilly, I was smitten and went off the next day to find one. I the showroom and you do in a room full of melodeons you have to try them all and once you come back to earth and remember what you originally went in for you get back to playing the lilly. So I was back to giving the lilly another workout, when I was offered another small box to try, doubly smitten this time with an excelsior mini. Wallet out and ready to do the deed yet another box appeared, an excelsior mini special,  smitten X 3 by the sound, plus the fact the price was a few hundred beer tokens less than the lilly, I went off with an empty pocket but with a grin which has lasted ever since.

Try the mini, it is compact, raucus, but still sweet if you play softly and very transportable. Plus a concertina sound on the high octave.  No I am not a salesman, just a very happy owner.
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 09:21:47 AM »

Try the mini, it is compact, raucus, but still sweet if you play softly and very transportable. Plus a concertina sound on the high octave.  No I am not a salesman, just a very happy owner.

The Excelsior Mini is a competitor to the Lilly. I had a quick go one one at the Hobgoblin stall at Wimborne. Felt heavier and more solid, but still a nice little box. Have a feeling it was 4th button start, but I can't remember.
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Roger Hare

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 02:27:07 PM »

Thank you all for those extremely helpful replies.  I won't quote from individual messages, but:

Now I know what 3rd/4th button start means, I guess that if I consider my concertinas,
they are 3rd button start - ie: the key note is a push on the 3rd button (on the left hand).
I need to think about that one. Would a 4th button start on a melodeon 'confuse' me, I
wonder (even if it is on the right hand...).

Looks like I may buy a Hohner Pokerwork as a 'cheap' starter, though there are good deals out
there at the moment for both the Pokerwork and the Lilly. I'm not averse to second-hand in
any case - money thus saved goes into the 'Roger's Next Concertina' fund.

The alternatives to Lilly are interesting too.

I can't see an Excelsior Mini or Mini-Plus at the moment, even on the Excelsior website, but
I have been alerted to their existence.

Best piece of news though is the pointer to the Loffet 'tou-p'tit'. Where am I going in August?
Le Festival du Chant de Marin in Pempoul, Bretagne! This is my favourite sailing/music festival
(the French really do know how to run these events!). I guess that M. Loffet will probably be
there - there's always been a couple of musical instrument stalls at this festival before, so I
may well get a chance to try out one of these instruments. Lovely!

Thank you once again for all the helpful replies!

Roger
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 02:31:29 PM by lachenal74693 »
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 02:37:19 PM »

There you go Roger, I told you so, many brilliant replies.
Go for the pokerwork. I started on one of those. Great boxes. Wrap a towel around your left wrist though,  the corners are very sharp. I won't go on, but the Erica is worth a look at. As for which key, it depends on what kind of music you like to play.
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Theo

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 03:23:08 PM »

There is an excelsior mini on UK ebay at the moment.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 08:21:53 PM »

As the owner of a GC Lilly, I wouldn't recommend it as a starter melodeon. It's a very small, light box, which, on the one hand, is an attractive quality, but I believe it also makes it harder to play. The Lilly has a very bright, loud sound which requires careful bellows control & the buttons are closely spaced, which makes it a bit fiddly to play. It's possible that a concertina player might be more comfortable with these aspects. Personally, I would recommend a more conventionally sized 2 voice melodeon as a starter box.
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Lester

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 09:20:08 PM »

Where are you based? It would be worth searching out a local session where I'm sure there will be box players who would be willing to let you have a go.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:29:25 PM by Lester »
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Theo

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2015, 09:45:16 PM »

Dino Baffetti Black Pearl would also be worth considering.  Two of them, and a couple of other DGs, on our buy and sell forum.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2015, 10:12:12 PM »

Did Cugiok sell his 3 voice DG Serenellini?

I think the other thing to consider is what kind of tuning appeals to you. Stock Pokerworks are tuned with a lot of tremolo, which may be a bit of a shock to the refined ears of a concertina player.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Another free-reed-aholic signs up...
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2015, 10:21:41 PM »

Now I know what 3rd/4th button start means, I guess that if I consider my concertinas,
they are 3rd button start - ie: the key note is a push on the 3rd button (on the left hand).
I need to think about that one. Would a 4th button start on a melodeon 'confuse' me, I
wonder (even if it is on the right hand...).
I am an anglo player myself. You are of course correct that the key note is 3rd-button start on the left hand. I have never found it confusing to swap from anglo to melodeon, regardless of whether the latter is 3rd- or 4th-button start.

Even swapping between 3rd- and 4th-button start melodeons takes no more than a second or two of re-orientation. It's not a problem.  ;)
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