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Author Topic: Question about modal scales  (Read 2584 times)

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Roger Hare

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Question about modal scales
« on: July 01, 2015, 03:31:24 PM »

I've tried to find the answer to this question on the internet. I don't know that
I've had that much success, so here goes:

I don't know how much musical theory I should bother with as a concertina
(and soon to be melodeon) player, but:

Consider the scale of natural notes - the scale of C:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Thehe intervals between notes are tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone,
semitone. These are the intervals between the notes in all other conventional
scales, so in the scale of G, we have:

G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G

with the F being sharpened to preserve the pattern of intervals between notes.
To a degree, this sounds 'the same' when played, as the scale of C - because
the intervals between the notes are the same: tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone,
tone, semi-tone.

Now, return to the scale of natural notes (key of C) and play them in this order:

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

The intervals are now tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, and to
ears accustomed to the scale played in the usual order it sounds a little odd.

This is a modal scale - Dorian mode, in fact.

The natural scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C played in the usual order is known as Ionian mode.

So, we have two scales using the natural notes:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (Ionian mode)
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D (Dorian mode)

The first scale is C (Ionian).

My question is:

Is the second example C (Dorian) because it uses the notes of the natural scale? or,
Is the second example D (Dorian) because it starts and finishes on D? with a follow-up question,
Does it matter?

Sorry if this is 'obvious' or is a non-question, but it's bugging me...

FWIW, I've 'known' about modal scales ever since I read A.L.Lloyds 'Folk Song In England' when
it was first published, but it never mattered till now...

Thank you.

Roger.

[cross-posted to melodeon.net and concertina.net]
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 03:38:24 PM by lachenal74693 »
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TomBom

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2015, 03:43:16 PM »

The scale is named after the root note, here: D dorian.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 03:45:57 PM »

Mr. Ryall of this parish has an article that I think addresses this question about modal scales.
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Howard Jones

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2015, 03:59:25 PM »

It is Dorian mode because of the particular sequence of tones and semi-tones.  The Dorian scale can start on any note.  Ditto all the others.

Using the white notes on a piano keyboard is a useful way of explaining modes but can also cause confusion.

TomBom

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2015, 03:59:43 PM »

Mr. Ryall of this parish has an article that I think addresses this question about modal scales.
Q
http://chrisryall.net/modes/
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2015, 04:54:28 PM »

Step wise view of modes

Each diatonic scale eg C has 7 notes => 7 modes

12 possible start notes so 12 possible diatonic scales (not on a melodeon)!
all these use different sharps and flats - but sound "ionian/major"?

there are 7 notes in each diatonic scale and you can start on any of these. So 7x12 =84 possibilities

parallel approach to same thing

Every tonic has a representative scale for all the 7 modes

Base scale | Modal scale in C
C              CDEFGABC = ionian
Bb           CDEbFGABbC dorian
Ab.          CDbEbFGAbBbC phrygian
G             CDEF#GABC lydian
F.             CDEFGABbE. mixolydian
Eb            CDEbFGAbBbC aolian/natural or relativeminor
Db            CDbEbFGbAbBbC locrian

… no way will I do this over 12 possibilities! On a real mleodeon we use modes that are made from the note "basket" of our main scales eg D and G, and only rarely use the others (it would need "accs"). That's why it's called diatonic melodeon.

(You can also base modes on harmonic or melodic minor scales)

« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 04:58:59 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 04:59:33 PM »

voila … we crossed in the post :|glug
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911377brian

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 05:01:25 PM »

Why don't I ever understand stuff like this despite trying really hard....
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 05:37:09 PM »

Why don't I ever understand stuff like this despite trying really hard....

It's basically 12 x 7 as opposed to 7 x12 Brian. I often find myself working them out, though a fluent jazzer will routinely practice all 84 (x 3) possibilities, and blues, and  pentatonics

We don't need to. Just take your D row and run up and down its scales starting on each of the 7 notes. All modes done. Do same for G (same push pull pattern) … that's it! And all you need for folk music is Ionian (base scale) dorian (D, start on E) mixolydian (D, start on A) and natural minor (D, start on B).

again, same for G row. The other modes have real meaning in eg Turkey, but not in GB/N American folk, and very little in Western Europe frankly.
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Jack Campin

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015, 06:16:10 PM »

There is rather a lot more to it, in Western folk music among others, than 7-note modes.

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2015, 08:38:47 PM »

Thanks, jack, Though that's what I said above (and I didn't even mention bebops). But the classic greek modes. are a fairly big chunk? Nice page incidentally. Will visit it next week as am full of cold and about to go to belgium … where doubtess they have even more astonishing ways of playing bagpipes!   :|glug

Pentatonics and hexatonics … guess they "start" as subsets of the classic greek church modes but once notes become bendable, and missed out notes introduce ambiguity all manner of things are possible. There is indeed a respected style of improvisation that uses "only" the 5 modes of various :( pentatonics.  :but we digress? In the big picture there seems to be a move to classify as much as possible in the framework of the greek church modes.

Well it's a start … I've heard that Greek jazz players work in trios …  so that if it comes to a vote there's always a majority opinion ;)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 07:07:32 AM by Chris Ryall »
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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2015, 08:56:43 PM »

I always found the special concept of six modes, providing three major and three parallel minor triads (or "chords") helpful in terms of

1. understanding scales with and without a semi-Leitton, augmented fourth step asf,

2. developing resp. expanding harmonic concepts within a given mode... (more use of third-step harmony, modal shift in modulations or different sections...

Being fully aware that there's so much more to it, I'm looking upon the simplified concept as a musician's tool which is making practical sense and allows for communicating...

Best wishes - Wolf
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playandteach

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2015, 10:30:03 PM »

I understand a little bit about modes (not modest, just true). What I find interesting is why people are concerned with them at all.

For me (clear, open warning here - YMMV) we explore for one of two reasons:
1. the set of rules we have is constrictive (we can't achieve what we want with those rules so we need to find a different set of rules).
2. we want the rules to be more constrictive in order to channel creativity (the blank piece of paper scares writers, but give them a starting point and they're off and running).

Modes can be the answer for either issue. And both are born from the need to create, when what we are already doing is working. For example one of the beauties of some of the Church modes is the absence of a true perfect cadence, which in turn stops the brutal closure of the phrase.
I love it when people forge their own way through.
Perhaps this is another way of saying that tradition is not preserving the ashes but keeping the fire alive.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2015, 06:58:08 AM »

The church ones were indeed a basis, but the idea was then taken up by harmony specialists, and later improvisors, moved on a lot.  I read about them in AL Lloyds book in 1970 but as a young singer never could understand why some minors wanted Em-Am-Bm-Em harmony, some demanded Em/D 'forever' and some (now known to be harmonic) liked Em-Am-Bmaj!!-Em, (or even Em-F#Ø-B7-Em as my chording improved).

So 'right chording' springs from being in a right mode'. eg Playing my DG in Em I am always 100% conscious of whether a tune is dorian (C#, D row) or simple (AKA modal!) minor needing C on the inner row.   I also delight in tunes (Dark Girl, King Salsa) that tease between the two.

(Strict tune players can switch off now) - but the real utility comes in improvising/arranging as the different tone-½-tone layouts of their scales throw different parts of scale into tension resulting in 'sensitive notes'.  Great examples are the b9 in phrygian,  major 6th in dorian minor, and #4 in Klesmer, rumanian … or blues for that matter.  All tend to get - well, hammered frankly - in both their traditional tunes, or when improvising in that mode.

Some Rumania/Hungary gypsy stuff even has two sensitive notes #4 and major 6 (dorian#4 scale) -  I find it incredibly bright and fun. 

How to harmonise that FFS? Well, - that's where falling back on the modes of (in this case) harmonic minor helps you  ;)

So for me the 'rules' from modes are freeing, and truly enabling. As an example - I do the song '7 Gypsies' in Bb (works on my  kit/voice) and at the end drop to Bb/F drone and improvise in Bb double harmonic minor scale  >:E  It's the one we associate with N AFrica and happens to lie conveniently all pull for me.  I know that if I stick strictly to those notes everything I play will work (:)

For once: I have a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt3aZqweTcE and those notes at the end are 'unpracticed' but they're not random.

 [Hmmm  Need to re-record  :-\ Dolly's since told me off for 1. playing too many notes and 2. Singing into my beard :|bl ]
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 07:00:27 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Question about modal scales
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2015, 07:10:52 AM »

Best wishes - Wolf

Hohner Preciosa Bb/Eb - Hohner Club IV Bb/Eb - Horch C/F (12 bass)
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Ooh - there are some nice things there - well recommended!!
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