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[Chris Ryall]

Pay dirt on page 27 Following her father, accordéoniste  Louise Reisner published methods, and sheet music for accordéon, and contributed to the evolution instrument, and perfection of the right end keyboard

There is a shot of a page from her méthode with a (modern) row layout in C (attached)

I find it difficult to tie the scale to the button layout, and the solfage doesn't match the ABs, but it does look diatonic. Louise is said to have dropped accordéon for concertina in 1839, so I guess the books might have been mid 1830s?

[ed] second image is her accordéon … you can see it's been dropped!

[Sandy Flett]

We could put it this way, couldn't we? The two-row (and of course "international" three-row) quint box and the CBA are the extremes, one fully diatonic, one fully chromatic, whereas the PA, the "Club" melodeon, the semitone-boxes are sort of trade-offs to a smaller or wider extent?

Sorry, I am just catching up on this thread. Intrigued that you see the PA as a trade-off, not fully chromatic equivalent to the CBA. Can you expand on that?

[Bob Ellis]

Interesting. It seems that bisonoric layouts appeared on melodeons and harmonicas at around the same time (c.1830), although the fact that melodeons were sometimes called harmonicas at that time rather confuses the issue.

[Chris Ryall]

Sorry, I am just catching up on this thread. Intrigued that you see the PA as a trade-off, not fully chromatic equivalent to the CBA. Can you expand on that?

Not quite - I see the PA as totally "equivalent" to CBA - believe inside they are the same? One set of reeds per voice,  one lever and one pallet per chromatic note, per octave? both have stradella at the blunt end?

They differ in what is attached to the lever (PA makers please correct me). In one case a simple button, or same with extend button to facilitate "any key" fingering on a 4 or 5 row

PA "isn't" a piano, but has the sze and to a limited extent extra weight of a mock piano keyboard attached. And instead of one fingering per key you learn 12?  Makes no sense to me, but as I said above it might make a lot of sense to a trained pianist.

But all the CBA and 11/12^ths of a PA are off topic - not diatonic

[blue eyed sailor]

We could put it this way, couldn't we? The two-row (and of course "international" three-row) quint box and the CBA are the extremes, one fully diatonic, one fully chromatic, whereas the PA, the "Club" melodeon, the semitone-boxes are sort of trade-offs to a smaller or wider extent?

Sorry, I am just catching up on this thread. Intrigued that you see the PA as a trade-off, not fully chromatic equivalent to the CBA. Can you expand on that?

Well, not exactly a trade-off as the PA is preceding the CBA by far to my knowledge. Moreover the PA is of course fully chromatic in terms of completeness (but not accesibility). OTOH the PA is more diatonic than the CBA, requiring instead of one fingering for all the keys (as Chris has correctly been remarking) increasing efforts for playing in flatter or sharper keys, but providing all relatives (modes) of its home key (Cmaj; whereas the CBA has no home key) just on the white keys (with a semitone step following each sequence of - strictly alternating - two or three whole-tone steps).

This doesn't result just in the difference of easy and difficult keys (as opposed to the CBA, which has only medium-hard keys so to speak) but furthermore in the PA reflecting the diatonic roots of melody and harmony in scales, intervals and chords (three major 3rd triads, three minor 3d chords built of white keys, or including one "black" accidental for the keys of Gmaj/Emin resp. Fmaj/Dmin asf.). This includes an intuitive approach to playing music, shared with the melodeon and other "really" diatonic (but however mostly limited then) instruments...

As mentioned in a previous post of mine this is very true and relevant for my playing the (English) concertina, but likewise playing the piano or piano accordion. I've been playing the piano and PA for decades before taking up a melodeon for the first time, and apart from the push/pull thing I was finding the instrument pretty familiar because I was familiar with diatonicly rooted music from my playing the piano keyboard. I can of course understand the attraction of isomorphic layouts as of the CBA or the Hayden duet concertina, but I would most likely be missing something myself when playing such an instrument.

The PA is perfectly diatonic in its home key (Cmaj, Amin asf.), allocating the accidentals just like in our common staff system, adding flats or sharps with every "turn" within the circle of fifths. Maybe the perfect diatonic instrument would be a 20-row quint box (doublications to the same extent as in a 120- resp. 140- button stradella bass system) then, which would of cause be unplayable (for the mouth harmonica the sixfold "Kreuzwender" has treaded that path to some further extent) because of weight and size, even when equipped with a super-clever coupling mechanism...

Personal "practical" conclusion: I would thus prefer the PA to a CBA but a melodeon to a PA, and then choose a two row or three row ("International" or in my more recent case rather "Club") quint layout over a semitone box, thus having just as much diatonic logic as possible as complete (in terms of chromaticism, or full circle of fiths) as possible, but very much preferable in a smaller and lightwheigt box (for partly private reasons) - in short: my newly found Preciosa!

Best wishes - Wolf

[Gary P Chapin]

It seems to me that no one's ever really been able to work out how to extend that underlying musical design philosophy from two to more rows, except by just tacking on other notes nearby, hence the great range of different third row and bass designs.

I think it depends on the style of music. I would say that Tex-Mex, Mexican, and similar musics are as "at home" on their three-rows as we are on two rows. By this, I don't mean just that they are more fluid and amazing on the three-row (though they are) ... I mean that the three row quint is foundational to their music in the way that the two row is to what we talk about. Nobody in conjunto circles is experimenting with an accidental row.

[Chris Ryall]

It always depends on what style you play, and here we have a nice example of a music style being brought into being be the organology of its instument (as frankly so many are)?

Elsewhere within melodeonism I'd also offer various 1-row traditions, in particular E Anglia, Québecoise, and 'Cajun. All very difficult to achieve on more complex instruments.

Don't get me onto bandonèon and tango … 

[blue eyed sailor]

But ... 11/12^ths of a PA are off topic - not diatonic

Shouldn't we rather say 5/12^ths?

Would anybody at all even consider to call a PA providing just the other 7/12^ths  "chromatic"?

[Chris Ryall]

.

     5/12^ths  when you count piano keys 

    11/12^ths when you count musical keys

[Bob Ellis]

To me, it doesn't matter much whether an instrument is described as diatonic or chromatic. Is a D/G instrument with a row of accidentals (or even with a few accidentals at the chin end) diatonic or chromatic? Who cares?

It is the bisonoricity of the melodeon that gives it that distinctive exciting sound that makes you want to dance, not whether it is diatonic or chromatic. It is also its bisonoricity (a lovely word!) that, for me, is the key distinguishing feature that sets the melodeon apart from the piano accordion and the CBA.

[blue eyed sailor]

.

     5/12^ths  when you count piano keys 

    11/12^ths when you count musical keys

Touché! 

[blue eyed sailor]

It is the bisonoricity of the melodeon that gives it that distinctive exciting sound that makes you want to dance, not whether it is diatonic or chromatic. It is also its bisonoricity (a lovely word!) that, for me, is the key distinguishing feature that sets the melodeon apart from the piano accordion and the CBA.

Agreed, and I'm loving this word, concept and sound as well. That's partly what has lead me back the melodeon, and my point was rather the features shared by both PA and melodeon apart from bisonoricity.

However, this wide-spreading thread is about diatonicity and how appropriate keyboards had emerged. In this respect it's important to come up against the common equivovation of or at least linkage between bisonoricity and diatonicity in order to at least inquire and elaborate the pros (or cons) of both aspects.

[Chris Brimley]

Coining a couple more words, the thing that has always struck me as slightly odd about this sort of discussion is that the danceability effect is not related to bisonoricity so much as 'bellocity' - you could achieve just the same effect with a unisonoric instrument if it were also designed to be light and flexible enough to be wobbled about.  And conversely, with enough reversal buttons, you can choose whether to wobble or not on a diato at different parts of a tune, a very useful effect.  So, why don't unisonoric (non-diato) players try to wobble too, sometimes?  (Or perhaps they do? - I've heard this done on a small PA to great effect.) 

[Jack Campin]

I don't think the kora is particularly relevant, since it has effectively different scales/modes for the two hands - if that parallels anything, it's the semitone box layout.

On the other hand, the hammered dulcimer is a lot more similar, and was popular in the same area as where the bisonoric box originated.  The scale splits left/right paralleling the push/pull of the melodeon.  Gusikov's "strohfidel" used a similar layout, a diatonic scale split into two columns up the middle with chromatics outlying on the left and right sides:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Gusikov

That dates from the same decade as the first Western free-reeds.

[Chris Ryall]

Coining a couple more words, the thing that has always struck me as slightly odd about this sort of discussion is that the danceability effect is not related to bisonoricity so much as 'bellocity'

"Bellicousity" in the case of certain parishioners, Chris  As for bounce - well, horses for courses I think.

English Country Cancing is unusually bouncy, and frankly our music style suits that. Dutch is quite similar. The other traditions I'm familiar with - Belgian/French bal and a lot of Breton involve more horizontality than here and suits cross finger or CBA play quite well. Even their polka is less rumbustuous  (see the videos I did 2 years back). Rondos or mazurkas …'lilt' rather than bounce? Exceptions are perhaps the heartbeat rhythm of bourrée and the Breton Plinn - the latter particularly bouncy - both work well on Accordeon

I did a lot of Eastern European as a lad, and that seems to work really well on CBA - almost what it was made for - lots of harmomonic minor modes. Csárdás is classically really strongly phrased, but like polskas is actually fiddle music.

Sweeping generalisations there I know, but I do feel that 'bounce' is one of the characteristic features of the English style

[Gary P Chapin]

So, why don't unisonoric (non-diato) players try to wobble too, sometimes?  (Or perhaps they do? - I've heard this done on a small PA to great effect.)

Drift drift drift drift ....

One of my favorite Breton players is Patrick Lefevbre, who I wrote about way back in 2011 (time for an undate!)

http://accordeonaire.blogspot.com/2011/03/tribute-accordeon-gavotte.html

His first disc, Accordeon Gavotte, absolutely floored me. It was so strong, so rhythmic, that it didn't even occur to me that most of the tracks were played on CBA. And some of the instruments had the wettest damn tunings between reeds that I've ever heard ... ssoooooooo delicious.

[squeezy]

I don't think the kora is particularly relevant, since it has effectively different scales/modes for the two hands - if that parallels anything, it's the semitone box layout.

Well when a group of Ivorian musicians came over to a music venue I was working in about 15 years ago the Kora player was eager to explain his instrument to us and his Kora played a simple major diatonic scale (although not in equal temperament) and the scale ran from hand to hand in just the same way that the two middle rows of buttons on an English concertina play the scale of C.  That was the point I was making when I mentioned it earlier in the thread.

I'm not denying that koras might come in a variety of different local tunings and fingerings ... but this one from the Ivory Coast definitely was tuned in that way.

[squeezy]

On the other hand, the hammered dulcimer is a lot more similar, and was popular in the same area as where the bisonoric box originated.  The scale splits left/right paralleling the push/pull of the melodeon.  Gusikov's "strohfidel" used a similar layout, a diatonic scale split into two columns up the middle with chromatics outlying on the left and right sides:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Gusikov

That dates from the same decade as the first Western free-reeds.

But this is very useful information to add to the conversation which I'm grateful for.  Thanks Jack!

[blue eyed sailor]

The last posts are suggesting another interesting choice: splitting a given diatonic scale into

1. just two equal parts of ascending thirds, major or minor as required, resulting in every new octave starting on a different row (English concertina, and apparently the Kora as well),

2. one part with just the major triad, with the other part having the remaining four notes, sticking with all the octaves to the same row (mouth organ, melodeon, apparently the hammered dulcimer as well).

The difference can thus be located at steps 7 and 8: either continued switching and thus mirroring the octaves, or reversing 7 + 8 by having 7 on the same row as 6 and thus ending with 8 on the row where 1 started the octave, no mirroring.

Small difference, very noticable results...

[oggiesnr]

There are bits of useful/interesting information in this article even though it mainly pertains to concertinas http://www.concertina.com/chambers/michaelstein/index.htm

Steve