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Author Topic: L'anse Grise Accordions, special  (Read 6673 times)

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pgroff

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2015, 04:08:31 AM »

On the C B system  let's say a 4 button inner row..Would this  make sense for the 4th button

C# push D pull..

And what would you see as the D box equivalent,
or a reasonable D box 10 plus 4 ?

Hi melodeon,

Well, if the box is a "true C/B system,"  the notes of the inner row would be those of a B row.  So if the 4th button is lower in pitch than the 3 buttons in the layout shown above, it should give the notes  D#/E.  (E would be a draw direction duplicate of the press E on the C row). If the 4th button is higher than the 3 buttons in the layout shown above, it should give the notes F# / E (again that [higher octave] E would be a draw direction duplicate of the equivalent E press on the C row).

But if you want C# / D on your inside row, go for it -- but I'm saying it wouldn't be a traditional "C/B system."

Note that on the C row the D notes are already on the draw, so a draw D on the inside row would duplicate that note in the same direction.  Maybe less useful for balancing air supply and for adding harmonies. But on the other hand, there are some tricks and ornaments for which duplicate notes in the same bellows direction might come in handy.

Have what you want to have!

Regarding a D box (main, 10-button row in D) with accidentals, I'd be inclined to go for either C# or D# for the inside partial row but I've seen many different ideas to suit different players and their music.  The D / C# 15 key layout is shown below. Omit one button from the partial row (either the higher one or the lower one) to get one possibility for a 4 - button row in C#.

                                               F / F#       G# / A#     C# / C       F / D#       G# / F#

           
F# / B (or A )      A / C#      D / E       F# / G        A / B       D / C#        F# / E         A / G      D / B     F# / C#


Not suggesting that this layout is the best, or that it will suit everyone. But it is a traditional layout with its own logic that can be found on vintage boxes, could use available reedsets (used or new) in the keys of D and C#,  and has its particular advantages.

PG
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Owen Woods

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2015, 09:37:29 AM »

Haven't thought about an accidental row for a one row before. This is what I've come up with for a D one row with four buttons. Fnat to play in Dminor, C both ways to get a C major chord and an F major chord. G# for playing in A, A pull to get A major chord and to be able to play against the A bass, G push for facility and for push pull balance and to be able to play against the D chord and a D pull at the top for those tricky little passages. I've assumed a four bass D/A G/G.

Any thoughts?

F/G# G/A C/C F/D

Lovely box by the way Bryan ;)

EDIT: And mine is quite similar to the one that Bryan's customer came up with!
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Bergflodt D/G 4 voice, Saltarelle Bouebe D/G, Super Preciosa D/Em, Hohner Impiliput B/C+C#

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Chris Ryall

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2015, 11:48:49 AM »

Réjean Brunet of Québec's  Vent du Nord was playing one at Racines/Memoires this summer
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pgroff

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2015, 01:24:43 PM »

Haven't thought about an accidental row for a one row before. This is what I've come up with for a D one row with four buttons. Fnat to play in Dminor, C both ways to get a C major chord and an F major chord. G# for playing in A, A pull to get A major chord and to be able to play against the A bass, G push for facility and for push pull balance and to be able to play against the D chord and a D pull at the top for those tricky little passages. I've assumed a four bass D/A G/G.

Any thoughts?

F/G# G/A C/C F/D

Lovely box by the way Bryan ;)

EDIT: And mine is quite similar to the one that Bryan's customer came up with!

Very nice system, ukebert. Your idea for a "D row plus 4 buttons" focuses on more notes available as reversals  (G, A, C, D) and two octaves of the accidental F, but omits some accidentals from the layout (D#, A#). 

Transposed to a box with "C row plus 4 buttons," your layout would yield these notes for the inside half row:

Eb / F#    F / G      Bb / Bb      Eb / C

That allows F, G, Bb, and C as notes available in both bellows directions, Eb in two octaves, and omits the accidentals C# and G#.

PG
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 01:48:29 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2015, 01:50:58 PM »

Since we are now considering "supplemental partial rows" in which only some of the notes are accidentals (notes absent from the main row of buttons ) . . .

it's worth comparing the traditional organetto layouts for 1.5 rows, in which there are often no accidentals, only notes that are also present in the main row but in reversed bellows direction.   These layouts are usually different in button geometry from the 10 + 3 layout with the 3 inside buttons centered (that Bryan used for his box and that is also seen in the Baldoni and the Tombo).

Here's a 9 + 3 organetto layout in G:

http://www.organetto.it/pages/tasti2b.html

In the notation I've been using, this would yield (for the key of G or sol):


                                             A / G     C / B    E / D

D / F#    G / A    B / C    D / E    G / F#    B / A    D / C    G / E    B / F#



In C:

                                          D/ C      F/ E       A / G
       
G / B    C / D    E / F     G / A      C/ B      E / D     G / F     C / A     E / B



In D:

                                              E /D     G / F#    B / A

A / C#    D / E    F# / G    A / B   D / C#    F# / E    A / G    D / B    F# / C#



And all those organetto layouts are brilliant for many fingering, phrasing, and harmony options if you are happy to forego accidentals, instead staying in the key of the main row (and its modes).

PG
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 01:52:29 PM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2015, 01:58:55 PM »

Another option would be to space out the 3 or 4 button "partial row" rather than having those buttons adjacent.

This might be handy if you want to make accidental notes available in more than one octave, and have those notes located near the natural notes of those octaves.

Here are some examples of accidental rows with the buttons more widely spaced.

The Louis Miller 10 + 2 layout has a main row in C with F# / G# buttons in two octaves (layout shown in the thread linked; see also photo attached below):

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,14968

The Storer Baldoni, played by Johnny Bresnahan in this photo, seems to have several inside-row buttons added to the original 10, but they're not closely spaced:

http://www.msp.umb.edu/MassMemories/Hibernian%20Hall/album/photos/photo23.html



The "Claude system" is similar to a club layout but has the buttons of the inside partial row more widely spaced:


http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,17383


PG




« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:03:49 PM by pgroff »
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Owen Woods

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2015, 05:16:12 PM »

That would be a great scheme for a box which was designed to play fluently in two or three keys. My system was designed to have increased fluency in D and A, with possibilities for Dmin, Dmix and G, plus greater chordal possibilities.

I want one now :P How much does Bryan charge again?
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melodeon

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2015, 10:14:52 PM »

Paul,

Great info as always...

Let's consider a    10 plus five in D.....

And D/C#.. and let's spice it up a bit with more than the usual  2 bass buttons... for simplicity how about basses for 4 buttons.


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pgroff

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2015, 11:24:38 PM »

Hi Jeff (melodeon),

Well, if you're asking for a "true" D/C# layout in 10 + 5, with the inner 5 buttons clumped and centered, and 4 basses . . .

That's exactly what Baldoni and Walters were doing ca. 1937 - 1950s.

They also made some with more buttons and fewer.  But the 15 key, 4 bass layout was a great compromise for a small but very fully equipped box and could be made with up to 8 sets of reeds (though 6 sets was more common), and all 15 melody pallets in one row for a very even sound.

See this thread for discussion and for the 15 key layout (and I'll re-post some pics below for convenience):

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,9187.msg115686.html#msg115686

The bass side layout could be D / A plus another useful set of basses. 

Often the second pair of basses is D /G. C# / G# was sometimes used even for a box with 15 melody keys but IMO 5 buttons is not really enough to make much use of the key of C#!    Other useful second pairs of basses might be  G / G, or maybe for some musicians' repertoire they might want B / Eminor or A / E. 

I love to listen to how William Sullivan (R . I. P.) made use of only 2 bass buttons, giving D / A basses and major triads, on his 10 key Baldoni while playing in the keys of D, A mixolydian, G, and E minor.  In fact, he rarely hit the triad button at all and could have sounded nearly the same with a single bass button providing several octaves of D notes on the press and A notes on the draw:

http://www.dynrec.com/sampler/trad.html

http://www.nyfolklore.org/images11/sullivan-32.jpg

PG

« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 12:30:16 AM by pgroff »
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pgroff

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2015, 12:35:28 AM »

Back to Bryan,

Bryan, hope this long discussion of options for the  layout of a partial "extra row" wasn't more than you bargained for when you raised the question.

I think your box looks brilliant and would love to be able to test drive one like that someday!

Thanks for sharing the photos!

I'll be very interested to see how the cajun players respond to this innovation.

Keep up the good work!

PG

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Owen Woods

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2015, 07:50:25 PM »

Of course, instead of the C# layout (F/F# G#/A# C#/C F/D#) you could go for a D# layout (G/G# A#/C D#/D G/G#) which would be very practical as you have reversals for G and D.

On four basses I would probably want G/G as the other two, although you could always have two bass only buttons (no chords), of G/G and B/E, or even B/G and F#/E?

EDIT: Actually I rather like that idea!
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pgroff

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2015, 02:44:58 AM »

Of course, instead of the C# layout (F/F# G#/A# C#/C F/D#) you could go for a D# layout (G/G# A#/C D#/D G/G#) which would be very practical as you have reversals for G and D.

On four basses I would probably want G/G as the other two, although you could always have two bass only buttons (no chords), of G/G and B/E, or even B/G and F#/E?

EDIT: Actually I rather like that idea!

Hi ukebert,

I agree that D/D# has nice qualities -- the features found in C/C# as discussed above, but transposed up a full tone.

PG
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blafleur

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2015, 03:21:03 AM »

Thanks for all the input, Paul and Ukebert.  I will save it for future consideration/use.  It's a hard thing for me to ponder because the extra buttons are foreign to me, since I only play Cajun music on a standard one row.  One little tidbit that came up after deciding on what notes to put where, is finding the reeds.  Not many makers will make one set of reeds, especially an unusual one.  In fact the only maker I know who will is Harmonikas.  We almost had to go that route, because I was having trouble sourcing the extra reeds, except for the Bb/Bb, which is readily available.  I ended up using the C/D from a that I repitched, and a F#/G that I repitched to F#/G#. 

Paul, I delivered the box to it's adoptive owner this weekend at a big Cajun music festival in Lafayette.  He likes to show his new acquisitions around.  The looks among the Cajun players who tried it  ranged from puzzled grimaces to delight when confronting the extra treble buttons.  A few of the really talented musicians were putting the extra buttons to use within minutes.  Most of the rest, me included, would have to spend considerable time figuring out where to use them. 

kenakordeon

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Re: L'anse Grise Accordions, special
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM »

Thanks to Bryan for building and Paul for the clear explanations and diagrams. A couple of smart guys who should get together on a project.
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