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Author Topic: 3 row usage  (Read 12585 times)

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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2015, 11:34:15 PM »

Thanks for that offer, Andy. I'm further north - Hexham, but might make the trip sometime. Disappointing to find that they're as beefy as a piano accordion, though the Chaville does look smaller / lighter. Lots of options to think about.
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Clive Williams

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2015, 08:49:05 AM »

Smallest chromatic around is probably still the Hohner Lucia/Cordelia - 3 row, 48 bass; old, out of production, and very rare. About as heavy as a Hohner Club perhaps. Mine is converted to D/G/Accidentals, but it would make a fine chromatic box as it is - most are in B system, but I'm sure a skilled restorer could make it a C system if that's your preference. They are extraordinarily rare of course, but my experience seems to be that's it's worth ringing round the major repairers (Mike/Theo/Martyn/Lester/etc) since they frequently come across them on foreign ebay and can source one easier than you can. Sometimes, they've even got one on their shelves awaiting restoration...

Other lightweight options include a 'Petit Chroma' (I think) from Bernard Loffet, which has a much simplified bass, and possibly ones made by some of the newer makers - Tania Rutkowski, for example, though her advertised models don't look particularly light.... hang on, yes, they do - scroll down the page for some nice cut down machines. Think I'd prefer/recommend the 4x12 stradella of the Lucia though.

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2015, 10:09:54 AM »

Totally different way of play on a CBA chromatic. You have to do it ALL with the fingers, there is none of that little flick of the bellows to place a grace note. That's to say that diatonics are super efficient in their home space - viz the row diatonic scale and its 7 modes, perhaps 5 of them useful in folk tunes.

Same applies to bass, where the diato's most simple bass/triads combos sort of play themselves due to the cunning parallelism of setup. But then you don't want to do little at left end stradella is pretty hefty.

To get back to 3 row diatonics - if you choose to play outside the main row modes you hit the same problem. A shrewd third row should offer close to full chromaticity on the pull (push won't do it). That's what my mind's "little paths" are about. If you want to play in eg C blues scale (based on relative minor of Ab) it is all pull, not that that is uncool when doing blues? The path for that on my kit looks something like a knight's tour at chess, and you can of course express its modes to by changing to G or F bass.

And once you've learned C blues … its there.  Contrast the CBA - on a 5 row if you learn Blues pattern you can play ALL twelve blues scales and have a stronger left arm too ;) Rows 1 and 5 are just lever extends, using space but little extra weight. A more compact 3 row  has the same essence, but you might have to practice up maybe three blues patterns, because the outer extend rows aren't there. Still easier.

But the essence (and secret weapon) of the diato is not it's scales, but that the bellows remain an integrated part of your play. On a CBA you could as well install a pump an pay a choirboy to supply the air >:E
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george garside

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2015, 04:37:54 PM »

knight's tour at chess, and you can of course express its modes to by changing to G or F bass.

 But the essence (and secret weapon) of the diato is not it's scales, but that the bellows remain an integrated part of your play. On a CBA you could as well install a pump an pay a choirboy to supply the air >:E

The bellows are very much an integrated part of playing a CBA or piano box as, like the diatonic they are at the very heart of all dynamics. To me the bellows on any box are the very soul of the instrument   being rather  like the bow is to the fiddler.

Or should I say should be as many boxes of all types are sadly played by those who thing the bellows are just a bloody great air pump!

george >:E ;)
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Chris Brimley

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2015, 04:54:03 PM »

Far be it from me to disturb any pre-Xmas friendly bashes, but I'm shy of responding to this thread because I suspect it's developed into areas a little bit over the OP's intentions.  Maybe set up a new topic?:   'The relative merits of 3-row systems', or something.  Then I can really weigh in!
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george garside

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2015, 05:14:05 PM »

good idea Chris , I look forward to you starting the new thread and 'weighing in'

george ;)
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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2015, 05:25:25 PM »

Oh, all right then.
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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2015, 06:45:41 PM »

I have found that my three row 18 bass has freed me to do pretty much everything that I want to do.
My bass isn't fully chromatic and still uses melodeon basses but apart from the C# i have everything aswell as a fully chromatic treble.

In all honesty 18 bass and stradella bass have a completely different usage and feel. I chose 18 bass because of the variety of chords and being able too keep the rhythm of standard melodeon basses. I also find that i like to drop the third out of my chords so there is no denotion as to whether the chord is major or minor which has an interesting sound that isn't available on stradella because you always have to third in the chord denoting major or minor. Stradella does offer the best option in terms of sheer amount of chords available but it means learning how to play the bass all over again but it is really great for bass runs.

any three row treble with decent design is fully chromatic ADG DGAcc BCC# are all chromatic

Benammi
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Bob Ellis

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2015, 07:31:46 PM »

I guess I was asking if the 3rd row was used by anyone to give a choice of runs of the same notes but over opposing direction chords - without having to use the bellows for pitch change between right hand notes.

Yes, I do use the third row for this sometimes. It is one of the main benefits of having all the notes in the keys of G and D in both bellows directions. It has been suggested that this leads to a smooth style of playing more akin to a piano accordion, but it needn't do so. I only adopt this style occasionally, e.g. when playing droned basses to accompany a slow air. Having all the notes in D and G in both directions allows you to choose more imaginatively where, when and how frequently to change bellows direction to suit the phrasing of the tune and/or to facilitate more imaginative bass lines.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2015, 07:43:44 PM »

Bob - I'd like to hear a few passages on your layout where it helps with this issue - for example flatworld - can you play the B section without tucking in the last note in the first and third bars?

I'll try to find the time to record Flatworld and perhaps something else to illustrate the way I use the third row to facilitate runs, but it may take a few days due to other commitments I have this week. To answer your specific question about Flatworld, I play it in Am and it would be possible on my boxes to play the runs in the B music entirely in one direction. However, I don't tend to do that partly because it can cause you to run out of fingers and lead to the occasional ungainly fudge, partly because of my preferred bass line and partly because, playing in Am on a D/G box, I only have the F natural on the pull.
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boxer

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2015, 03:55:53 PM »

I had my hands on a Chaville B-system instrument recently.  It was very nice and if I wanted to play CBA, that would be my choice - it didn't weigh much more than a 3-row either.

If I wanted a do-it-all diatonic, I'd get a 16-bass stradella l/h side (tonic and chord [with stops for low reed and thirds]) made for a decent B/C box. 

In the days long ago when I played D/G, I used to fantasise about having enough buttons to play continuous scales or part scales in keys other than D or G.  In the end I concluded that CBA represented the ultimate development of the idea, but I wanted to play a light diatonic box. 

I had to accept that having to change bellows direction at some point(s) in the course of a musical figure is the blessing/curse of diatonic boxes, and learning how to do it well is a big part of the pleasure of playing.  I bit the bullet and changed to the lightest fully chromatic option with the fewest buttons and rows - B/C.  I've never regretted it, and when I want to do a bit of harmony I've already got 12 stradella no-thirds basses on my Black Dot to attempt it with.

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Steve C.

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2015, 05:23:38 PM »

There is a reason GCF's are so popular, lot's of ways to smooth out runs in either direction, lots of right hand chord combinations.  But since there are so many of the "same" notes, cuts down the fun and flexibility value….
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george garside

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2015, 10:10:05 AM »


If I wanted a do-it-all diatonic, I'd get a 16-bass stradella l/h side (tonic and chord [with stops for low reed and thirds]) made for a decent B/C box. 
 
 

I think your double ray delux  has the same dimensions as the 3 row trichord andifso the bass end from a hohner student piano box can be adapted to fit (  details of48 bass conversion on here somewhere) but I think the hohner student could be had with 24, 32 , 40 or 48 bass., all 8 diagonal rows x

george
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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2015, 04:30:32 PM »

thanks for that, George.  I'm tempted to try it, although I suspect that the weight of a full PA l/h end might compromise my ability to play the r/h side crisply - I usually play Irish reels polkas and jigs at respectable speed. 

All the PA stradella basses I've ever seen have had four or five reeds behind each of the 12 ports in the block, and a Jacquard-like arrangement connecting the buttons to the pallets.  This is a mass far greater than that of the double ray's relatively simple, melodeon-like l/h mechanism.

If I can find a suitably cheap little PA to cannibalise I'll give it a shot and find out.  Thanks again.
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2015, 11:02:02 PM »

Going back to my original point, are these great players using 3 rows in order to maintain the long melody lines in single directions? This clip (Deux Freres) still breaks my heart.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRkdpe608U&index=4&list=PLJSqRxsIw5WWq0N2VRL6nCmHg9ZqJHyLr
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Theo

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2015, 11:11:58 PM »

Going back to my original point, are these great players using 3 rows in order to maintain the long melody lines in single directions? This clip (Deux Freres) still breaks my heart.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRkdpe608U&index=4&list=PLJSqRxsIw5WWq0N2VRL6nCmHg9ZqJHyLr

Though I'm sure that in this case it is as much to do with the players as with the instruments.  If these two self effacing musical geniuses had invested as much in learning a completely different accordion system eg PA, CBA bandoneon or anything else, I believe they would still be breaking your heart with their music.
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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2015, 12:44:10 AM »

Going back to my original point, are these great players using 3 rows in order to maintain the long melody lines in single directions? This clip (Deux Freres) still breaks my heart.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRkdpe608U&index=4&list=PLJSqRxsIw5WWq0N2VRL6nCmHg9ZqJHyLr

Yes - in part, I think that is exactly what they're doing. I'm not sure what layout they have on the 3rd (inside) row but it seems to involve some reversals (Dutch reversals?) of some of the 2nd row buttons. I say this because it is possible to play the major key section of this tune on a two-row instrument, yet they are choosing to move to the 3rd row for some of the notes, so there is less bellows waggling.

Also - referring to your post elsewhere about bellows technique, theirs is exemplary.  (:)

And yes - this performance breaks my heart too. It's among the loveliest melodeon playing I've ever come across.

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Chris Brimley

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2015, 11:09:35 AM »

I agree. It is an absolutely beautiful tune, played to perfection by Naragonia.

For a three-row player, it shouldn't be too difficult technically to play the right notes in the right order.  It requires reversals and a few accidentals.

It's in Bb, but if I transpose mentally to G, you need the reversed E to play the first phrase smoothly.  The basses are what provide a lot of the interest - you've got magic passing notes, and suspended chords, played very subtly.  So against the first phrase, you'll need G, F#(note), Em on the LH.  That really means 14 or 18 bass, for most layouts.  The middle bit in a different key is in Dm, and you'll need basically to be able to play Gm and Am (A7? - not sure) as well as the other home key chords.  If you have F on the RH, and thirdless basses, you should be able to do that.

I can't work out what keys Pascale and Toon's boxes are in, but I notice she plays a pull on the final major Bb chord. You can't tell whether he does too.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2015, 07:45:40 PM »

I found Bb  deux frères surprizingly easy to play on my C#DG based van de Aa. Have offered it in in a couple of sessions, but no one came in ::) But it ain't right  :'( Yes, these two are true masters of millisecond timing, and it must surely help to be the parents of the brothers (now 3, Pascale tells me) concerned.

2 fréresis also, incidentally, and importantly a dance. A gavotte de l' Aven, from a small valley in S Brittany. This also informs its structure in s big way, with the gaps nicely coincident with the backwards step.Gavotte de l'Aven is traditionally played as a long "suite" with several rhythms, but modern style is just to do the beautiful swayed part … forever

Here's another http://youtu.be/VA5lDe36GuU

I hadn't appreciated the sus chords going on there, but … well, that is the magic of duo play, and right hand chording? Anyway, yes, it plays on 3 rows, but still not as I'd truly like it :-\

Think they play GCaccs castas, Chris, but there is some new kit being purchased
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 07:50:25 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Chris Brimley

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2015, 09:35:49 PM »

I think you're right, Chris, it may be on a GCAcc, looking at it more closely.  Playing a tune on a GCAcc in Bb would not be my immediate choice - I wonder is the reason something to do with accommodating the middle section in Dm?  If the reason was to have easy access to appropriate chords for this bit, they don't actually seem to play many of them, so I confess to being somewhat flummoxed - playing the tune in C would seem to be an awful lot easier all round.  On DGAcc, playing in G with those sus chords is actually really nice to do, I've found, and it seems to me you can actually make a good fist at the whole tune on just one box.   I think I must be missing something about the tune at the moment, that can't be right.

Have you found any dots for this tune, anywhere, Chris?  Are you going straight for Bb?

I've been camping several times to Aven - a lovely spot with many artists about.

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