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Author Topic: 3 row usage  (Read 12586 times)

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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2015, 10:00:13 PM »


Yes - in part, I think that is exactly what they're doing. I'm not sure what layout they have on the 3rd (inside) row but it seems to involve some reversals (Dutch reversals?) of some of the 2nd row buttons. I
Just found an old email from Pascale Rubens (couldn't get into my old email address for a while).

"about our accordeons: we play like you on a G/C accordion with 2 G’s in pushing and 2 A’s in pulling. But because we have a third row, we have a G in pulling on that third row".
I guess everyone here had figured that out by now anyway,
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Chris Brimley

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2015, 09:13:06 AM »

Just to clarify my earlier comment - the middle bit's in Dm when the tune is played in G.  In the key as played, it would be in Fm.  In Dm, the chords accompanying would seem to be something like Dm Gm7 Dm A7, Dm Gm7 F  A7 Dm.   Or in Fm-speak, that would be Fm Bbm7 Fm C7, Fm Bbm7 Ab C7 Fm.

Pascale's comment is equivalent to a row 3 Dutch reversal, for GCAcc, isn't it?  They'd still need quite a few other accidentals to play the piece in Bb on a GCAcc, I'd have thought.  I wonder was it written in this key to play with a transposing instrument, such as saxophone?

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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2015, 10:27:06 AM »

That would make it C major, G minor on Soprano Sax, certainly lies well, but then so would A major, E minor (if they'd played it on melodeons in G and D minor).
I don't think the dominant minor is done for practical reasons, I like it for the contrast of tonality whilst still being a clean step back to the home key.

Having said that the actual tune range in the key they play it in lies in a warm area of the soprano sax for the A section and in the sweet spot for the B section - so maybe that is the reason. I know: I just tried  :D - quite nice after an 8 year lay off. There you are, saved my first emoticon usage for a special occasion.
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2015, 06:20:35 PM »

Someone asked for the dots. I thought I'd make myself transcribe it. Didn't know what to do about the chords, and decided that the bass line was more important to include than the actual chords. Don't think it's possible on a standard two row 8 bass to get the combination of bass line, melody in any key. Perhaps someone here knows better.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2015, 07:43:56 PM »

Bb, and C minor are big BIG keys in Brittany as they commonly play with bagpipes and bombardes.

My friend Pierre on Ile Grande (North coast, an hour from Cornouaille and val d'Aven) carries around Bb 1-row, and Bb/Eb melodeons … and a triangle, on which he is a rhythmic genius.  :|glug
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2015, 08:05:52 PM »

I found Bb  deux frères surprizingly easy to play on my C#DG based van de Aa.
Wouldn't mind hearing that. I think the only clip I've seen of yours is one involving singing - have I missed some that are just melodeon?
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Chris Brimley

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2015, 09:56:28 AM »

playandteach, that's really useful - thanks!
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2015, 10:12:35 AM »

Now added the chords, for someone in a different thread, but here too, in case someone else wants them.
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Roger Howard

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2015, 01:31:13 PM »

Now added the chords, for someone in a different thread, but here too, in case someone else wants them.

Now that's really, really useful. I spent a bit of time looking at the Bb version, but it looks much more accessible in C.

Thank you.


Roger
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2015, 09:39:59 AM »

Now added the chords, for someone in a different thread, but here too, in case someone else wants them.
Brilliant! Thank you very much indeed!  (:)  :|glug

My only additional comment is that to work properly, these need to be played in the upper octave of the keyboard (i.e. an octave higher than written, as shown in the attachment to James' post here). If your instrument is 3-voice, LMM, adding the L voice will stop the sound being squeaky (which is what Naragonia do most of the time).
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2015, 11:51:08 AM »

I play it up there too. And that do, on their videos.

Basically this tune descends to its dominant F7 turnaround chord (G7 in C) , and in that no small part of its beauty?  :|glug
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2015, 12:41:40 PM »

I play it up there too. And that do, on their videos.

Basically this tune descends to its dominant F7 turnaround chord (G7 in C) , and in that no small part of its beauty?  :|glug
Not sure what you mean by descends to its dominant - do you mean that the melody is lower in the B section, than in the A?
For me the important key relationship is that it moves to the dominant minor.

On Mr Freereeder's voicing point: I can't hear (maybe just my ears - too many years in front of timps) the higher voice at all in the Naragonia youtube version. Is the upper voice usually mitigated to such an extent in a 3 voice when the lower one is added (presumably the extra air needed for the lower reeds starves the upper ones?)
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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2015, 02:40:53 PM »

On Mr Freereeder's voicing point: I can't hear (maybe just my ears - too many years in front of timps) the higher voice at all in the Naragonia youtube version. Is the upper voice usually mitigated to such an extent in a 3 voice when the lower one is added (presumably the extra air needed for the lower reeds starves the upper ones?)

No - it's not that the lower reeds starve the upper ones. What's happening is that lower reeds are the predominant pitch which the ear perceives, but the upper reeds are adding an 'edge' to the sound. If either of the sets of reeds were switched out, you'd soon hear the difference.

In the video, re-linked here for convenience, they play with the combination LMM for most of the time. However on his entry at time 2':33" Toon has switched off the low reed so that just the MM reeds are sounding. Then, at 2':46" using his thumb to flick the switch on the rear of the keyboard, he brings the L reed back in again whilst still playing the melody in the same position on the keyboard. The sound difference is (hopefully) clear. 
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2015, 03:28:50 PM »

Thanks for that. I'm surprised how nice it sounds even without the low reed. I thought I'd dislike it that high. I suppose the quality of the recording is helping, and the playing obviously.
Oh, for more time.
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2015, 05:29:01 PM »

I feel a bit like a red-headed step-child here (and I have one of those, so I know), but I'm going to stand up for the quint tuned three row. I got my three row (F/Bb/Eb) because I was working with a singer who needed the Eb. Also, I just wanted to expand the number of scales I could play in, because I'm in a trio w guitar and clarinet. I do not deify the quint system -- in the sense that I don't see its limitations as sacred in some way. But I do privilege the quint system because that's what I know. I am not interested in being able to play in every key, so I don't need every button to provide something new. Also, I recognize there are redundancies in notes, but I find that often gives me multiple choices in fingerings -- it's that problem-solving aspect of the quint that I love so much. Also, as I was considering all of this, a great box came available at the Button Box within my price range.

I wrote some initial thoughts about playing the three row after it arrived. That's here: http://accordeonaire.blogspot.com/2013/06/first-tunes-with-baffetti.html Also, there are videos there.

So, all that reasoning aside, I find the three row quint to be a complete blast to play. At first I was just transferring stuff from the two row to the three, but I've really taken the three-ness of this box to heart and am starting to play. The same sort of joy I feel playing the two row-eight bass, I feel with this three row.

I love playing it, it suits my needs, and I love playing it. Did I mention that I love playing it?

Gary
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2016, 08:21:10 PM »

Are the 3 rows conducive to playing longer phrases in one direction - does the layout of the 3 scales mean that a missing note on the draw will be easily accessible on the 3rd row?
Can someone tell me what type of layout is being used here? It's a piece I've just been learning, but the bellows changes I'm having to put it (especially in the 'pick-up' bars) are not necessary for this guy (who I'm fairly sure wrote the tune in the first place). For me it looks like the holy grail. Not bad for the 1st day of the year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QtXifbLObs

P.S. What instrument and layout does Pariselle use here? (only 2 1/2 row, I know).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KjaiWI8WPI
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 09:28:41 PM by playandteach »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2016, 10:38:25 AM »

Marc Peronne is one of the demigods of 1980s French bal traditionel, sadly now much reduced by MS. He's playing straight conservatoire style there, with long phrases against single, or sometimes a pair of chords, all in one direction. For this you need long stretches of scale across the rows in both directions.

To be fair, an ordinary DG has big chunks of Em or D scale in this way. Club or Dutch invert … has even more … but helper row is the real biscuit. Not sure what layout Marc used

That's Pariselle's "own design" - essentially 2¾ on the right end. He does maker's courses and several here have built to his pattern (as has Andy Cutting). I'm sure one can advise as to layout, but it has been assessed as a good'n. It should probably be added to the melnet layout collection as a "standard"
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Theo

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2016, 10:43:59 AM »


P.S. What instrument and layout does Pariselle use here? (only 2 1/2 row, I know).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KjaiWI8WPI

The box in this clip is a Salarelle Tramontane which EP designed for Saltarelle.  He now plays his own make with the same note layout.  The box he usually plays now is in AD with accidentals on the short third row.  The 14 bass buttons include a typical 12 bass with the addition of two buttons that play bass notes with no chords.   This makes a chromatic set of bass notes.
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playandteach

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2016, 04:03:16 PM »

Marc Peronne is .. playing straight conservatoire style there,
Chris, could you clarify for me... when you say style, do you mean layout (rather than technique)? If so, do you know what the right hand layout is?
Thanks
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 3 row usage
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2016, 04:46:30 PM »

no, and no. The style is a way of playing, notes against the chord(s) of a bar without too much wobbling of bellows (English style) but it's very smooth and facilitates playing of variations, note inversions, that sort of thing without disturbing the harmonic progession. A good helper row layout simply facilitates that, and indeed playing in slightly exotic keys.

Quick google  ;) offers this as his layout - the right side resembles Pignol Milleret in that it is based on G and A harmonic minor main rows, plus accs. The left end is very different, presumably chord based, and suiting his type of music.
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