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Author Topic: The relative merits of 3-row systems  (Read 15027 times)

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Baron Collins-Hill

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2015, 10:25:21 PM »

When this video was recorded, the bass layout was still bisonoric, as in the bass layout at the beginning of the thread I started on the layout. The bass end is currently back in Italy getting unisonified (for lack of a better word). That said, the way the left an right hand layouts work together, there shouldn't be any audible change in sound between the bisonoric and unisonoric bass ends. The left hand offers most notes in either direction, and the left end offers most chords and basses in either direction. The switch from bi to uni-sonoric is mostly condensing bass and chord choices I already had to sound the same way in and out.

On the cross rowing pieces, I will still maintain the same bellows directions that I have used in this video, which has more to do with right hand layout than left. For example, having a Bb mostly only on the Push, it makes sense to play melodies over the IV chord in the key of F on the push, as the melody is likely to have Bb's in it.

Cross rowing in G on a standard D/G, one generally plays I (Gmaj) chords and the associated melody on the push, IV (Cmaj) and V (Dmaj) on the pull, ii (Am or Am7) on the pull, iii (Bm or Bm7) on the push, and vi (Em) on the pull. This is partly due to the right hand chord/bass choices available on a standard 8 bass, and partly due to right hand options (such as a C only on the pull). I used the same idea to craft my cross rowing techniques on the Big 18, even though I could technically use any direction I please.

Hope this helps clear things up,
Baron
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Chris Brimley

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2015, 05:09:24 PM »

Ah, sorry, I've just re-read my earlier ambiguous post, and realised I'd confused you - I wasn't asking why you play legato passages at all - I do that an awful lot too (and use much the same sort of chord vs melody fingering principles as you do, it seems).  Let me rephrase my comment:  given that you're using legato RH playing styles frequently and as you say will presumably be using much the same fingering with your unisonoric basses, I was struck that the overall sound is still very recognisably melodeon rather than PA.  And I find exactly the same thing, playing legato passages - they still have plenty of 'feel' and even 'bounce'.  Which suggested to me a wider point that there is something else about stradella accordions than 'unisonoricness' that makes them almost always sound a bit mushy, and I was wondering what it is.

(I wouldn't in a million years dare to suggest it is simply that they aren't being played very well!  http://forum.melodeon.net/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
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george garside

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2015, 05:21:46 PM »


(I wouldn't in a million years dare to suggest it is simply that they aren't being played very well!  http://forum.melodeon.net/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)

Chis I think you may have opted to not hit the nail on the head so to speak !

george >:E ;)
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Chris Brimley

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2015, 05:33:26 PM »

Exactly how much does the LH stradella system on a 120-bass chest Wurlitzer weigh, I wonder?
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benammiswift

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2015, 06:24:32 PM »

Stradella doesn't weight that much because once you have a full set of reeds, the only extra weight is in the increased dimensions of the box and the rakes to make the other buttons work. extra melodeon basses add a full new set of reeds even if it's a repeated note.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2015, 07:16:48 PM »

.
      Numbers?
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george garside

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2015, 09:25:20 PM »

Stradella doesn't weight that much because once you have a full set of reeds, the only extra weight is in the increased dimensions of the box and the rakes to make the other buttons work. extra melodeon basses add a full new set of reeds even if it's a repeated note.


the 12 bass end of a trichord weighs 1.4 KG and presumably the corona is the same

the 32 stradella bass end of a hohner student ( which I intend to graft onto a trichord)  weighs 1.7 kg s mere .3kg heavier than the 12 bass setup'

the  30 or 48 bass student bass end would presumably be only fractionaly heavier as same number of reeds and same size casing.

so on that basis stradella is going to make little or no difference to the handling of a 12 direct acting bass setup

george
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Chris Brimley

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2015, 09:39:51 PM »

So it's something else that causes the effect?  Is it that you tend not to use a RH thumb to push with on a PA, so you can't change bellows direction quickly?  If so, perhaps PA'ers don't realise what they're missing!
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george garside

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2015, 10:08:24 PM »

It could be something to do with the limitations of the push/pull bass i.e.  the melodeonist often has to play bass that are less than perfect in harmony and can at times tap the bass lightly as a sort of slightly tuned percussion that gives the melodeon its very characteristic sound


 On the other hand the stradella players  can have   on each diagonal row counterbass ( a third up from bass note) bass, maj,min,7th and dim 7th chords available for, depending on the size of the box, up to 12 keys and is likely to concentrate more on decent harmony and less on 'good thump'????????

george
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Chris Brimley

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2015, 08:49:28 AM »

Here's my theory:  It's all about unwanted movement of the RH side - with the 3-row, you generally get all the notes you need within finger stretch distance, even for chords, because of the efficiency of the diato concept and the small size of each button.  Therefore you don't need to use your thumb, it can be used for pushing, and positional reference. 

With the PA, the notes are spread out much more, and you have to stretch and jump about much more to reach the ones you need.  You need that thumb to extend your reach, so you can't use it to find your position, or to push on the edge of the keyboard to give variation in bellows pressure.  You compensate in two ways - you play with constant bellows pressure in one direction for long stretches of music, and you slide up and down the keys a bit when the RH moves as you change direction.  Sorry PA players, but I have to say this is simply a conceptual design fault!  I think if I played one, I'd want to explore the possibility of incorporating a strut between the keyboard and my upper arm, maybe near the inside of the elbow.  I'm guessing PA designers have compensated for the inherent problem of constant bellows pressure by using easily playable but pressure-insensitive reeds?  And this is why a PA sound lacks dynamics?

Whereas with melnetter's instrument of choice you can get a great deal of dynamics by varying bellows pressure, it's one of the best features of the instrument, and why it and the violin have featured so strongly in dance music?

As George points out, the downside is that even the 3-rower has relatively limited LH chording in comparison with full stradella, and I greatly support the concept of decent harmony, but actually, we can get pretty close in practice with the bigger bass layouts, with a little ingenuity.

There is a slight snag with my theory - if it's right it doesn't really explain why some 3-row button accordions with stradella basses also sound a bit mushy.  George, can you help with that one?
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Matt (Kings Norton)

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2015, 09:55:04 AM »

You compensate in two ways - you play with constant bellows pressure in one direction for long stretches of music... And this is why a PA sound lacks dynamics
[/quote

no, you don't have to, and no it shouldn't.  Though you could play one like that if you wanted to.
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george garside

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2015, 10:04:08 AM »

have a look at 'youtube cavan fleadh mick foster ' for a brilliant example of piano accordion bellows minimalism!  If you were watching from behind you could take it for a diatonic being played.  mick is also accompanied by a nice bit of mouthie playing

george
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Chris Brimley

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2015, 10:20:33 AM »

George, brilliant playing certainly, but actually, I think the video supports my view - he seems to be playing largely with constant bellows pressure (look at the changes in position of the chin end when he changes direction), and relies on precision fingering technique rather than bellows pressure variations to get the dynamics.

matt, I agree that you shouldn't have to, but isn't it also true that most PA players do tend to do it?  Possibly it's a lot easier to play like that?
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Theo

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2015, 10:35:03 AM »

I think it is a learned thing Chris.  Melodeon players have to use the bellows, including reversals, from day 1 in order to play anything and therefore become accustomed to using the bellows dynamically.   PA and CBA players aren't compelled to think about the bellows, so its natural for them to concentrate on the keyboard.   Unless an astute teacher points out the dynamic possibilities of the bellows?
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george garside

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2015, 10:45:40 AM »

I think Theo has probably  hit the nail on the head as most PA teachers don't get stuck into  teaching fine bellows control  and dynamics early on in the proceedings.

  When I am teaching piano box I automatically introduce dynamics and fine bellwos control very early in the proceedings  - I have never thought about why I do it ( other than it is good practice) but it must be because I am at heart a push/pull man!

george
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2015, 11:28:24 AM »

Stradella doesn't weight that much because once you have a full set of reeds, the only extra weight is in the increased dimensions of the box and the rakes to make the other buttons work.
the 12 bass end of a trichord weighs 1.4 KG and presumably the corona is the same

the 32 stradella bass end of a hohner student ( which I intend to graft onto a trichord)  weighs 1.7 kg s mere .3kg heavier than the 12 bass setup' George

OK, I'm biassed then. My 18 (chromatic both ways) button van der Aa is …  1.335kg and I've assumed a 12 might be lighter. Though a Gaillard 18 is "by feel" still  less than the Corona 12 number above.  Your point about minimal reed plates for all this is well made and I hadn't realised the wires were such a small overhead.

But I still so enjoy that little bellows flick on a melodeon bass 2 way button, modulating briefly to a different note against tune or song. Think we agree that "bellows" is what the instrument is really about.

Let's not forget hydralics in this. Larger boxes have a wider X-section across bellows and the arm force needed to alter pressures, and so do any type of bellows nuance whatsoever is proportional to that. With a bit of extra mass too, that could be a factor just short of 2-3x

Actually - thinking about that several of the stradella players I really admire play cut down kit similar size to melodeons. I think this could be a factor in their style fluency.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 11:36:02 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2015, 11:46:54 AM »

Here's my theory:  It's all about unwanted movement of the RH side - with the 3-row, you generally get all the notes you need within finger stretch distance, even for chords, because of the efficiency of the diato concept and the small size of each button.  Therefore you don't need to use your thumb, it can be used for pushing, and positional reference. 

[Advert] Aire et Geste DVD (still time for Xmas?) first part is all about the importance of fixity of the right end, they give several methods.

Chris goes on wrt to spacing of PA notes and I'm absolutely with him on that. I like quartal chords - famously wide and with size 9 hand can just cover 2 octaves pull on the righth, 2¾ push.

Dislocating stuff on a PA? It is IMHO a daft arrangment, suitable for those with piano skills, but too lazy to learn the far more efficient (and actually equivalent) CBA layout

By the way, Chris. No need ever to apologise to PA players ::) you are on Melnet and amongst friends
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george garside

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2015, 12:57:35 PM »

[Advert] Aire et Geste DVD (still time for Xmas?) first part is all about the importance of fixity of the right end, they give several methods.
 
Dislocating stuff on a PA? It is IMHO a daft arrangment, suitable for those with piano skills, but too lazy to learn the far more efficient (and actually equivalent) CBA layout

 

I totally agree about the merits of acontinentalover a piano box.   The reasons for the much greater popularity of the PA are, I think, down to  tthere being more of them about being played, in the shops etc so many do not know the continental exists and/or  the PA is deemed already playable by those who have perhaps only farted about a bit on a cheap electronic keyboard.

As to diatonics the bulk of the populace don't even know they exist/are different  and I have come across a great many who  are certain that Jimmy Shand played piano accordion! --to most of the populace an accordion is one and the same as a piano accordion - full stop!

 george
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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2015, 09:57:01 PM »

I think it is a learned thing Chris.  Melodeon players have to use the bellows, including reversals, from day 1 in order to play anything and therefore become accustomed to using the bellows dynamically.   PA and CBA players aren't compelled to think about the bellows, so its natural for them to concentrate on the keyboard.   Unless an astute teacher points out the dynamic possibilities of the bellows?

I think it's also to do with how an accordionist has been taught, or not as the case may be.  I've heard classically trained PA players who have a control of dynamics which is superb, I've heard others (often in sessions) for whom dynamics seems to be a foreign word.  It's a mind set, for the best PA players the bellows are crucial to the music, to others they're just the means by which the instrument makes a sound.

By the same token I've heard melodeon players to whom it's if it's not on the row then it's not melodeon music, what's legato? and "G" is not a chord that's available if you're playing on the D row  (:)
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george garside

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Re: The relative merits of 3-row systems
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2015, 10:24:27 PM »

 \I think part of the problem is that  a large number of ? players, of all types of box , who have had no formal instruction ,maybe because non is  available, have unknowingly copied the ? style of a crap player who has in turn copied another crap player so that through nobodys fault the problem of crap playing is self perpetuating.

george
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