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Author Topic: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff  (Read 5909 times)

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xgx

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Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« on: December 29, 2015, 12:13:37 AM »

If the original is in Amix which, to my simple mind, is effectively in D* what would one do to play it in G on a DG box?. 
*The key signature would be 2 sharps  with or without a natural sign for G.
(I'm given to understand that the original may be played on a DG [Anahata])

To my simple uneducated logic the solution would be to transpose it to Dmix which, to all intents and purposes, would be in G - insofar as the 7th note is flattened viz the C# becomes C natural.
The Key signature would be a single sharp .... or not?

I'm guessing there's more to this than meets the eye ... KISS principle applies :-*
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george garside

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2015, 12:26:52 AM »

plqy it in A on the D row which  as it lacks G#  sounds right. 

george
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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2015, 12:32:09 AM »

Not entirely sure what you're asking here... as I don't get the Atholl Highlanders connection.
But I would try to avoid thinking of modes as anything other than the mode - knowing that it is a major scale with a flattened 7th is good, knowing that it therefore has a certain key signature is good.
Therefore... knowing that D mixolydian has an F#, but a C natural is all good.

Stating, though, that it is, to all intents and purposes, in G... that is to start to unravel the good stuff. Yes, they have a common key signature - but they are not the same beast.
To my mind D mixolydian has more to do with D major than G major.
Perhaps your point is, do I have the notes I need on my 2 row? Then understanding that you can play F# because you can play in G is understandable, but still wonky in the long run.
Perhaps more of an issue is whether you have 3rds in your chords, chord 5 needs to be minor in mixolydian modes - to give the modal cadence, rather than the perfect cadence.
I don't have 3rds, so I don't need to worry.
YMMV
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xgx

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2015, 12:45:42 AM »

In the playgroup thread an abc notation of AH was posted with K:Gmix as the key signature code.
Using a converter the 'dot' version showed neither sharps nor flats in the key signature.

I queried whether the key code should be Dmix which would show a single F#, the answer, which I did not fully understand, suggested not... because the 'C' music(not shown in the abc) didn't have an F.

There's more than one F not there, for me there's isn't one in clue ::)

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deltasalmon

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2015, 01:05:05 AM »

I'm with George. I play it in A on a D row often and if I have a G# available I'll play it in the run up in the C part but that's easy to fake with either playing G nat or playing an A twice instead.
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Sean McGinnis
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xgx

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2015, 01:08:53 AM »

Thanks, yes I understand about playing it in the original key on a DG box, the question was:

"If the original is in Amix (...)what would one do to play it in G on a DG box?.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2015, 01:17:12 AM »

I'm with George. I play it in A on a D row often and if I have a G# available I'll play it in the run up in the C part but that's easy to fake with either playing G nat or playing an A twice instead.

I was gonna second that, but now I'm too late.

Learn the melody in Amix on the D row - switch that fingering over to the g row and you're in Dmix. If you really need to play in Gmix you'll need to play in the upper octave and drop your forefinger down to the f natural. Possible, but probably not the best way forward.
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deltasalmon

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2015, 01:31:28 AM »

In Gmix I don't see how you can get around that 4th measure of the D part unless you have a F natural accidental. I tried faking it with other notes that would be available on a D/G but none seemed to sound right.
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2015, 01:35:36 AM »

In Gmix I don't see how you can get around that 4th measure of the D part unless you have a F natural accidental. I tried faking it with other notes that would be available on a D/G but none seemed to sound right.

D/G with accidentals will include F nat.

viz

http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/keyboards/2%20Row%20-%20D_G%20-%20with%20accidentals.jpg
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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2015, 01:48:56 AM »

D/G with accidentals will include F nat.

viz

http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/keyboards/2%20Row%20-%20D_G%20-%20with%20accidentals.jpg

Fair enough. My G/C unfortunately has no accidentals, only low notes. With an F nat at the chin end it might take a little getting used to (for me, I don't often play accordions with chin end accidentals) but otherwise, a D/G with an F nat at the chin, the tune should be easily playable in G mix.
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Howard Jones

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2015, 10:11:44 AM »

I'm curious why you want to play it in G. If it's to play with others who have to be in that key, fair enough.  If it's in the belief that it will somehow be easier to play on a D/G then I think that is mistaken.  If you have the F natural then it's possible but you won't have the appropriate chords.  This is a tune which fits very well played in A on a D/G, with chords, although as a lot of it is on the pull it does need careful air control.

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2015, 10:32:05 AM »

Personally, I wouldn't want to play it in G by choice however it's played in G for the NW side that attends the Playgroup meeting.

I was more interested in the theory


Must try it on me CBA(C)  ;D
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Theo

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2015, 11:03:09 AM »

My only reason to play it in G would be as a lead up to playing it in A, giving that great kick in the pants key change from G to A that is part of the musical culture round these parts, though I do understand that it would not be a usual part of (southern) English style.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2015, 11:51:16 AM »

I've always found the main thing with this tune in A is not so much the lack of available notes as the fact that there is so much pulling required on a 2-row, if you accompany it with the appropriate chords, that you quickly run out of air.  You continue to do so all the way through the tune, with no opportunities for recovering.  With most designs of 3-row you can switch some of them to pushes, and this then makes it playable.

It's also nice if you can get the snappy grace note D# before the first main E note.
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Howard Jones

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2015, 12:06:08 PM »

D mix has a key signature with one sharp, if that is what you mean by "playing in G". However I agree with playandteach that it is a mistake to think of it in these terms. A key signature with one sharp can be G major, or D mixolydian, or C lydian, or A dorian - etc.  You have to identify the tonic note of the scale in order to know which of the many possible keys a tune is in.

I suppose my question now is why does the playgroup want to play it in D mix/G? I assume this is for beginners and improvers, but they will find that elsewhere the tune is most commonly played in A, so when they come across it in a session they may struggle if they have learned it in a different key.  Besides, this tune is actually a great introduction to learning to play in A, so in the long run I think their playing would benefit more by learning it in the original key.  Just my opinion, of course.  But as Chris has pointed out, the main difficulty with this tune (as with most tunes in A) is that so much of it is on the pull, and learning where to grab some air on the push is one of the key skills (pun intended  (:) )

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2015, 12:25:49 PM »

According to Malcolm, it's not the playgroup per se Howard
So, to refresh:
For those wishing to join in (entirely optional) with Belle D'Vain on the Sunday, these are the tunes that you'll most likely meet. Assuming all in G?
Anyone got dots/abc for Atholl Highlanders in G?
(...)
Athol Highlanders (only that A&B parts, and played in G)
(...)

It would help to know, unfortunately I can't recognise (CS - Cloffeer's Syndrome) which key these are in ...  A or G (modal or other) ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo1sr5SctN4

https://www.facebook.com/robin.walker.9693001/videos/10156175583010018/

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Graham

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malcolmbebb

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2015, 12:52:10 PM »

I suppose my question now is why does the playgroup want to play it in D mix/G?

Well, the first point is that it is not actually a playgroup tune at all (:) It is a tune used for dance by Belle D'Vain Morris, and is presented as a tune to which they may dance, following the playgroup. It is included so that anyone who wishes to play along with the dancers might get a feel for it. Again, here, the learning experience of playing with a bunch of others, in the open air, for dancers (and when it won't matter if you get it wrong) is the primary objective, for as many as will. Simple suits us very well.

As for why only part, or only in G - you'd have to ask BdV, but many tunes have been subordinated to the needs of Morris and the tunes ideally need to be playable by less skilled and learner morris musicians as well as the more capable. Here the tune is not the end, it is a means to an end. A whole separate discussion topic, if you wish.  >:E

I assume this is for beginners and improvers, but they will find that elsewhere the tune is most commonly played in A, so when they come across it in a session they may struggle if they have learned it in a different key.  Besides, this tune is actually a great introduction to learning to play in A,

Fair comment, but way above the target level of the playgroup, even the post-beginners.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 12:53:53 PM by malcolmbebb »
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Rees

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2015, 02:00:56 PM »

The easiest way to play it in G would be to use a C melodeon! You could then pretend you were in A on a D melodeon if you get my drift.
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xgx

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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2015, 02:06:14 PM »

I play Mairi's Wedding in G on a C box ;)

and in ? on the A row, ? on the D row and ? on the G row innit
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Re: Atholl Highlanders ~ Theory stuff
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2015, 02:08:20 PM »

I agree, Mairi's Wedding is much more fun played that way (also Boys of Bluehill).
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