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Author Topic: Airtight through wiring  (Read 3843 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Airtight through wiring
« on: February 13, 2016, 02:38:36 PM »

Apologies if this is the wrong location for this post.
As part of an onging project to incorporate amplified music into our sides performances at larger venues, I am considering wiring piezo pickups, secured to the bass side of a pokerwork, back through the bellows. Has anyone practical experience of doing this, please? In particular, I am interested in methods of making bulkhead through cabling airtight in both directions,  but I am also interested in any other unforeseens that might be encountered.
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Greg Smith
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Lester

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2016, 02:51:33 PM »

The boxes I have been inside that were so wired used a bit of silicone sealant around the hole the cable passed through on the soundboard and had the jacksocket in the non-pressurised side of the casework.

You may also want to consider anchoring the cable to every second or so fold of the bellows to prevent it sagging into the folds, again I've seen this done with a blob of sealant.

It is also a good idea to have a joint in the cable to allow the ends  to be removed (I've seen inline phono plug sockets used).

Rob2Hook

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2016, 03:18:08 PM »

Yes, Lester has covered it all - and although I'm averse to too many joints, I'd put a connector both ends of the bellows.  The wire within the bellows needs to be serpentine, looping upward and downward alternately between each blob of sealant (bathroom RTV probably the cheapest) to allow bellows movement without straining the wire.  Using the same sealant to bed the mic capsules will give them a little vibration isolation too, cuts down on handling noise.  As I'm sure you know, an electret capsule requires a bias voltage and this can be supplied from a small battery mounted inside the treble end plastic battery boxes are pretty cheap in Maplins, et al (you can even have a volume control out through the grille - though often best just to have a balance treble/bass control).  If the jack socket used is a stereo one, then inserting the mono socket will bridge the two channels positive contacts, which can be used to switch the battery into circuit.  If you need it, I can dig out or draw afresh the circuit required once I've done the week's housework (could take a while!).

Rob.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2016, 04:18:10 PM »

This idea from our "21st Century Box" thread might be relevant?

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,7840.msg169751.html#msg169751

You still have to get a single cable out, But I'd just drill a suitable hole and put in a jack plug (not that I have experience of such).
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2016, 12:30:27 AM »

Thanks for the replies guys

1. I get the impression that my preconception of using an M6 cable gland (e.g., http://uk.farnell.com/lapp-kabel/52001860/cable-gland-brass-3mm-m6-silver/dp/1204193) might be thought a bit OTT, if a dab of sealant will do the job. maybe I'll stick with that.

2. I'm less sure what to do about cable routing though the bellows. I was wondering about using an mp3 player coiled extension cable across a diagonal. Not sure now  whether Lester's suggestion of a straight cable strategically secured wouldn't be better: Less prone to rattle and slap.  I was thinking of using 2.5mm or3mm jacks to connect a cable across the bellows but, I think I like the idea of BT sockets better: More secure.

3. I hadn't thought of using electret capsules. My plan was based on piezo  transducers. I've got half a dozen reasonably decent ones knocking around. I was planning to stick them  to the reed boards with epoxy at whatever turned out to be the optimum configuration and sweet spots.
These don't need power but do need to go into a high impedance input. I have a twin channel  DI box doing nothing at the moment. Bass and treble parallel networks can be taken by an unbalanced 1/4" cable to the two inputs. These  can be combined in the box to one channel and taken by balanced XLR cable into an available  mic amp input in a small mixer.

Outstanding questions going through my mind are:

1. Would electret pickups be less susceptible to mechanical handling  and button noise?  Might the whole system be noisy to the point where it becomes unusable? Would electrets give a more natural sound?

2. Would a coiled cable across the the box be more susceptible, or less, to slap and rattle and being damaged, or causing damage, from being shaken around or getting trapped in the bellows.

3. How do I get decent balance across bass and treble and would I need equalisation control for bass and treble before the signal is combined,  or could I just use the mixer strip to EQ the combined signal?

4. Should I be nervous of using epoxy glue on a musical instrument?
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Greg Smith
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Anahata

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2016, 08:15:59 AM »

I'd guess electrets generally produce better sound than piezos, but when close miking instruments it's more of a black art where the unexpected can work perfectly.
Noise is not a problem with eletrets on a melodeon; the problem you may have is at the other end of the dynamic range, as your typical £2 Panasonic electret can easily overload on a loud box.
"Rattle and slap" from the internal cable isn't particularly a problem, but getting trapped between the bellows folds is. Use a long cable in a zig-zag path through the bellows, anchored at various points as described by Les and Rob2Hook, who have really covered all that's needed. I used silicone sealant at the ends too, but if you drill a hole that's the same size as the cable there's isn't much leakage anyway.

I don't do it that way any more. I still have a Microvox electret in the bass end connected to a phono (RCA) socket but I often use a pair of cheap clip-on gooseneck mics (not clipped on but held with heavy duty velcro on the clip.


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Rob2Hook

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2016, 09:27:58 AM »

Anahata has covered aspects we'd missed, as ever.  Close micing does indeed tend to overload - the sound levels within the grille are pretty high, so an enthusiastic moment can seriously overload!  It's rather like explaining to a newbie caller that with a mic in yor hand you should no longer shout! ;D

I suspect that a mic capsule rather than a piezo transducer will give the more natural sound as the characteristic of the instruments is airborne,chopped air flow, not a resonant board.  But then, it would be no harm trying them out and if it works to your liking...  I would councel against using epoxy - at least in any sizable dollops.  It can be pared away, slowly and carefully, should the need arise and for a piezo it will provide the secure coupling needed - just don't get any where it's not wanted!  It takes a few years in good strong sunlight to break down.

One of the advantages of a DIY system built from discrete components is that you are not encumbered with extraneous packaging (and costs) and can tailor the installation to exactly suit the individual instrument and your own needs.  My first box (when all those who had loaned me one wanted them back)was a Dino Baffetti "Morris 3".  The design later morphed into a Saltarelle - it was a good box, but a bit heavy.  It had internal mics as I originally described, with a jack socket on the lowest face of the treble end, a volume control in the corner of the grille, two or three electrets dabbed onto the grille cloth with silicone, a serpentine wire through the bellows and a single electret capsule in the bass end.  There was no facility to break the wires anywhere, so one had to be careful when accessing anything else.  I had a vague fear of a wire breaking as I couldn't do a field repair although there was no fear of re-soldering them quickly at home.  The sound produced was a little boxy, but as good as any close micing will produce and quite acceptable in a band context.

There is an interesting variant for the bass side.  I believe it is known as a conference mic, and is simply an electret type mounted within a crevice!  This is achieved by inserting the capsule into a block with a step of only a mm or twoto lift the face of the capsule off the mounting face.  It makes it unidirectional and slightly bass loaded - both of which do no harm in the bass cabinet.

If you would like a few capsules to try out FOC, send me a PM with an address and I can post you a handful.  I acquired many of these from a friend who was modifying intercom systems.  May not be best quality, but will allow you to experiment and the wiring remains the same if you later choose to substitute better ones.

Rob.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 09:30:39 AM by Rob2Hook »
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Theo

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2016, 11:08:14 AM »

Another cople of pointers. 

I've seen serpentine wires come loose and lie against reeds causing some reeds to sound very bad.

The big advantage of not linking the two sides is that you can have separate feeds to the sound desk where the L/R balance can be adjusted.  When you are playing the instrument you are in the worst position for getting the balance right for the audience.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2016, 12:57:09 PM »

Mmm. Overloading is a concern I hadn't considered. if I (or rather, we) can't play with enough control Anahata's approach sound like a good alternative to internal pickups  (don't think I can afford microvox, but Thomann swan necks might be achievable).

Separate bass and treble mixing channels have to be the simplest way of getting balance and tone control, but I have a slight complication in that I have a 7 piece band (with the possibiity of guests) to wire into our PA system. Whatever solution is picked has to be independent of mains power and easily portable. 

We have a QTX  QR12PA battery PA (which seems to give excellent results for £150), with the intention of getting a second, if it works out and a couple of Behringer Xenyx 1002B mixers, which I have used before and which, so far as I know,  are the only half decent battery powered mixers around, with the added benefit of being cheap as chips (relatively speaking) at £75.

As things stand, this gives me the following inputs:
 
2x (rather naff, but ok for speech) wireless microphones. Might be useable as emergency instrument mics, if desperate, but I've not tried them yet. Might prove a slightly unkind, but simple, solution for  guests! 
4x XLR, balanced input, mono channels with mic amps and phantom power (18V on batteries) or 1/4 jack with inserts.
6x XLR 1/4 jack line level, balanced input, stereo channels for line level I/P

All inputs are low impedance hence the Behringer two channel DI box, required for a couple of members existing pickup systems, but available for experiment. Effective and cheap as chips, for what they are.

As I understand it, piezo  pickups benefit greatly from putting by being DI'd and put through preamps.
I have:
3 x free reed instruments (melodeon and accordions)
1 x  tea chest bass (piezo pickup being trialled, but bass mic is a second option if the cabinet noise from a foot moving around  is unacceptable).
1 x guitar (line level EQ'd output)
2 x fiddles (one already wired with piezo pickup one to be decided, be the same, if that works ok).

Worst comes to the worst, I have a couple of condenser mics and a Shure SM58 (yes, I know it's a vocal mike, but it's ok with a bit of EQ), as alternatives  for the free reeds,  but I am worried about wind noise (which I have bad experience of, playing outside). Decent wind shielding isn't cheap. Also, its nice not having to lug around mic stands and stand near them.

But, have I got enough preamped inputs? Not enough if each accordeon needs two preamped channels, but plenty if they they can go into line level stereo channels.
 
Off to experiment with externally mounted piezo pickups and double sided tape as a starting point. Thanks for the offer of electret capsules Rob, very gratefully accepted. PM sent.

Thanks to all of you for your advice. With your help, this has been a great way of thinking things through. Now, it's playtime!

Greg


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Greg Smith
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IanD

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2016, 01:27:43 PM »

Piezo pickups *won't* work, even more so outside.

Low-cost electret capsules *will* overload if you play loudly -- play several right-hand notes together hard and you'll hear horrible distortion. Electret mics inside boxes (especially treble end) have a tendency to give very uneven pickup across the notes unless you use multiple capsules (at least three or four). Bass end is less of a problem but the overload problem remains with a loud box or one played hard.

Rob's "conference mic" is a boundary effect mic, Tandy used to sell these -- their main purpose was to avoid reflections from a tabletop colouring the sound, inside a box bass end they don't have any advantage over (or difference from) an omnidirectional capsule.

The only solutions that really work well are external gooseneck mics attached to the box with long enough necks to get them far enough away to get even pickup (at least six inches or so) and stand-mounted mics -- SM58 will be fine, there are better alternatives if you want to spend more. If you're playing outside then decent windshields are a must in either case.

I agree that it's far better to keep the two ends separate from all points of vies (EQ, volume levels at both FOH and foldback), if you don't have enough channels then you at least need level trimming before combining them into one.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2016, 05:33:55 PM »

Piezo pickups *won't* work, even more so outside.

Low-cost electret capsules *will* overload if you play loudly -- play several right-hand notes together hard and you'll hear horrible distortion. Electret mics inside boxes (especially treble end) have a tendency to give very uneven pickup across the notes unless you use multiple capsules (at least three or four). Bass end is less of a problem but the overload problem remains with a loud box or one played hard.

Rob's "conference mic" is a boundary effect mic, Tandy used to sell these -- their main purpose was to avoid reflections from a tabletop colouring the sound, inside a box bass end they don't have any advantage over (or difference from) an omnidirectional capsule.

The only solutions that really work well are external gooseneck mics attached to the box with long enough necks to get them far enough away to get even pickup (at least six inches or so) and stand-mounted mics -- SM58 will be fine, there are better alternatives if you want to spend more. If you're playing outside then decent windshields are a must in either case.

I agree that it's far better to keep the two ends separate from all points of vies (EQ, volume levels at both FOH and foldback), if you don't have enough channels then you at least need level trimming before combining them into one.

Thanks Ian. Goosenecks are looking increasingly attractive, but I guess I'll probably waste a bity of time playing around first  ;D 
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2016, 06:48:37 PM »

Ian's quite right you'll get much better tone reposnse and less overload problems with gooseneck mics or stnds and mics, but the disadvantages of cost, transportation and in the case of gooseneck mics vulnerability. 

I have used Mocrovox, which I've no wish to dis, but they are simply a tube with a few electrets in them and mount external to the grille rather than an internal mounting the other side of the cloth.  They can easily be overloaded and you will need velcro on the grille to mount them (which will soon have more of your favourite jumper on it than you are wearing).  They are however quite robust, despite having trailing wires down to the belt clipped battery box.

I then tried AKG C416 goosenecks, which require a small patch of velcro or a permanently affixed mounting.  I found thes gave a good sound, but in an amateur scenario some clown was forever breaking them - snapping the gooseneck or pulling the very fine signal wires out.  Again trailing wires to the battery box.

For a gig on stage I prefer my two AKG C1000 mics on drum stands set about 18" away from treble and bass.  These can be run from internal 9v batteries, but the stands are a pain to transport.  They do however come with half decent windshields.

Despite the less than perfect performance of internal mics, they have great advantages for a quick and dirty PA system.  I suggested simply having a pot to attenuate the bass input as someone FOH can advise on the required balance before you're added to the mix.  In many bands this is the only instrument providing any bass so they may request more than you expect!  It's nowhere near the level of fidelity that Ian aspires to, but then neither is the rest of the system.  Sometimes more important to play a dance with spirit than beautiful tone!

Rob.

P.S.  I have no experience of the later AKG C516 gooseneck mics or other makes and they may now be more robust.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 06:51:59 PM by Rob2Hook »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2016, 10:12:13 PM »

Ian's quite right you'll get much better tone reposnse and less overload problems with gooseneck mics or stnds and mics, but the disadvantages of cost, transportation and in the case of gooseneck mics vulnerability. 

I have used Mocrovox, which I've no wish to dis, but they are simply a tube with a few electrets in them and mount external to the grille rather than an internal mounting the other side of the cloth.  They can easily be overloaded and you will need velcro on the grille to mount them (which will soon have more of your favourite jumper on it than you are wearing).  They are however quite robust, despite having trailing wires down to the belt clipped battery box.

I then tried AKG C416 goosenecks, which require a small patch of velcro or a permanently affixed mounting.  I found thes gave a good sound, but in an amateur scenario some clown was forever breaking them - snapping the gooseneck or pulling the very fine signal wires out.  Again trailing wires to the battery box.

For a gig on stage I prefer my two AKG C1000 mics on drum stands set about 18" away from treble and bass.  These can be run from internal 9v batteries, but the stands are a pain to transport.  They do however come with half decent windshields.

Despite the less than perfect performance of internal mics, they have great advantages for a quick and dirty PA system.  I suggested simply having a pot to attenuate the bass input as someone FOH can advise on the required balance before you're added to the mix.  In many bands this is the only instrument providing any bass so they may request more than you expect!  It's nowhere near the level of fidelity that Ian aspires to, but then neither is the rest of the system.  Sometimes more important to play a dance with spirit than beautiful tone!

Rob.

P.S.  I have no experience of the later AKG C516 gooseneck mics or other makes and they may now be more robust.

Thanks Rob and everyone else. Guess I'm going to try working my way through the various solutions until something works well enough to do the job! I may well update with the outcome if it's not too embarrassing


Any of you around Dartmoor, on a Wednesday evening in the Summer, look us up (Dartmoor Border Morris website will have the diary) and the Jail Ale's on me.


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Greg Smith
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Kimric Smythe

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2016, 08:04:16 AM »

I use hotglue to seal the wires through the deck. Pass the wire through the hole ,put a big blob of the glue on the wire near the hole and pull the wire with the glue into the hole. Im not a fan of RTV as it does not stick that well to wood,and it makes it nearly impossible to ever glue anything there again. You can always poke the ho glue around with a soldering iron, and you can heat it up the same way to get the wire out if needed.
 Here is how I wire the bellows section https://www.flickr.com/photos/26639011@N06/12829292465 I designed this system and have installed about 100 of them and this really works.

 You don't want to use condenser mic inside the bellows as the changing air pressure kills them.

Overdriving the mics was a problem and it took awhile to find some that could deal with the volume (over 129db 2" from the grill) it took a friend and I about 2 yrs to get something that was effective. A lot of the work was balancing the preamp chis with each mic change.
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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2016, 10:09:33 AM »

I use hotglue to seal the wires through the deck. Pass the wire through the hole ,put a big blob of the glue on the wire near the hole and pull the wire with the glue into the hole. Im not a fan of RTV as it does not stick that well to wood,and it makes it nearly impossible to ever glue anything there again. You can always poke the ho glue around with a soldering iron, and you can heat it up the same way to get the wire out if needed.
 Here is how I wire the bellows section https://www.flickr.com/photos/26639011@N06/12829292465 I designed this system and have installed about 100 of them and this really works.

 You don't want to use condenser mic inside the bellows as the changing air pressure kills them.

Overdriving the mics was a problem and it took awhile to find some that could deal with the volume (over 129db 2" from the grill) it took a friend and I about 2 yrs to get something that was effective. A lot of the work was balancing the preamp chis with each mic change.

Thanks Kimric. Sorry if I seem pushy, but I hope you don't mind a few questions?

RTV=? Reality Television  :D

That looks neat and very effective. Is that bellows tape you are using? Self adhesive?

Is the cable assembly an off the shelf item? It looks just the thing and I don't have the tools, these days, to make up my own loom.

Do you have a spec for the mics you ended up using?

Is that a bespoke preamp pcb you're using? I see it's got your name on it!

How did you manage to avoid arrest, dressed like that?
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Theo

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2016, 10:39:49 AM »


 Here is how I wire the bellows section https://www.flickr.com/photos/26639011@N06/12829292465 I designed this system and have installed about 100 of them and this really works.


You seem to have a very diverse customer base ;)
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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2016, 12:13:22 PM »


 Here is how I wire the bellows section https://www.flickr.com/photos/26639011@N06/12829292465 I designed this system and have installed about 100 of them and this really works.


You seem to have a very diverse customer base ;)

Just your average Californian resident  :P
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2016, 05:29:13 PM »



"RTV=? Reality Television  :D
RTV is what is called silicone interchangeably here in the US (room temp vulcanizing) I have done some reality TV (Junk Yard Wars, Power Tool Drag Races) I managed to build an accordion into my junkyard machine but you only get a glimpse of it. http://www.tv.com/shows/junkyard-wars/off-road-golf-264850/

"That looks neat and very effective. Is that bellows tape you are using? Self adhesive?
 The holding tabs are usually just a piece of card stock folded and glued to the wire before I open the folded tab and glue it to the bellows fold. About every 4th fold.

Is the cable assembly an off the shelf item? It looks just the thing and I don't have the tools, these days, to make up my own loom.
The cable is flat ribbon cable with MOLEX cable plugs, but twisting up really thin high strand count wire works well too.
 I worked in Silicon Valley in the 80's where everybody knew how to solder and do this sort of thing. My friend Peter (MIT grad and machining expert) did a lot of the production work.

Do you have a spec for the mics you ended up using?
It would not do you any good, as the mics need to be matched up with your preamp chip and be balanced for the application. This is the part that took so long with getting the kit together. The mikes are not that special , they are just good in really loud environments.

Is that a bespoke preamp pcb you're using? I see it's got your name on it!

We have our own boards burned and do the final assy ourselves. I tried to do as much of the work in the US as possible to keep jobs local and to avoid getting pirated by the Chinese.

How did you manage to avoid arrest, dressed like that?
Ah you stumbled across Krampus, I started a Krampus troupe in my area a few years ago This year we did 5 events 3 of them in LA with Krampus Los Angeles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8u1ZckN28 It just so happens that the events are often accompanied by accordion.
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Pinole, California
Sales and repairs since 1997

mr hohner

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2016, 06:15:04 PM »

my cable going through my castagnari pick up lead internal is pinned to every one of the bellow folds, ill upload some picks of how mine is soon.
Cheers
Mr hohner
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Castagnari Studio D/G, Serenelli D/G, Hohner Pokerwork D/G, Castagnari Lilly D/G , Sandpiper Dublin II G/C, Serenelli Silyvia G/Acc

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Airtight through wiring
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2016, 09:38:56 AM »


How did you manage to avoid arrest, dressed like that?
Ah you stumbled across Krampus, I started a Krampus troupe in my area a few years ago This year we did 5 events 3 of them in LA with Krampus Los Angeles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8u1ZckN28 It just so happens that the events are often accompanied by accordion.

Ah! Off topic but extraordinary. I had never heard of Krampus, but I am now Wiki educated. Love the idea of a festival that can turn trick or treating on its head and punish naughty children with naff gifts rather than nice ones. I wonder what the Cornish is for Krampuslauf?

Thanks for sharing the on topic info with me.
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce
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