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Author Topic: Project box  (Read 29833 times)

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Lester

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Re: Project box
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2016, 04:05:49 PM »

I ended up with one plate installed wrong-side-down, but since these are screwed and pinned in (rather than waxed) it was simple to correct this.  Hooray screws and pins :) 

I would guess that I could pop out and rewax a single reed quicker than you could a screwed and pinned one. Hooray for wax.   ;)

Lester

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Re: Project box
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2016, 04:07:43 PM »

That makes perfectly good sense to me, though I'm sure I would never have thought of it.  What is the effect of a "too stiff valve"?  The higher notes do seem to need a bit more oomph to get them going.

Think you have answered your own question with the 'bit .more oomph' bit. Stiff valves take more air pressure to lift them

Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2016, 06:47:14 PM »

I would guess that I could pop out and rewax a single reed quicker than you could a screwed and pinned one. Hooray for wax.   ;)

I think that's a pretty good guess,  ;D  Hooray for skill :)

Here are the results on the treble side - surely there is more work to be done, but not a bad first pass, I hope:

Eb row
Eb scale
Bb row
Bb scale

Obviously, forgive the inept playing - in addition to being a total beginner I have no straps :)
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Henry Piper

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Re: Project box
« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2016, 08:55:10 PM »

You probably Know this already !!, but, when trying out your scales, don't forget the Bellows direction reverses in the upper octave !!!
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From Ottery St Mary Devon. Currently Playing Dino Baffetti BP2 in D/G, Hohner Student 1 P.A conversion  in D/G,  Hohner 3515 Pre-Pokerwork in A/D,   2 row "Beaver Brand" in Bb/Eb, Hohner Pre- Erica in G/C .  Single row permanent 4 voice, 4 bass in C from old Hohner single row and bits of a cheap Cajun box !!,

Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2016, 10:04:38 PM »

You probably Know this already !!, but, when trying out your scales, don't forget the Bellows direction reverses in the upper octave !!!

Indeed :)  The recordings are not so much to demonstrate my scale playing, but rather to capture the sounds of each reed in sequence.

A little progress today - go the bass chord reeds re-valved and re-installed onto the block.  This time I trimmed the top, helper layer to about half the effective length of the valve, per Lester and other's suggestions.  I will go back and do this to all the treble reeds the next time the blocks are out...



It's nice to know that if I ever need a replacement reed block, there are at least 9956 others out there, somewhere.


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Lester

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Re: Project box
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2016, 11:45:40 PM »

Glad to see you as good at cutting the ends the valves square as I am  ;)

Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #106 on: April 29, 2016, 03:24:30 AM »

Glad to see you as good at cutting the ends the valves square as I am  ;)

It takes a great deal of complex and meticulous calculation to get angles that seem so random.
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Henry Piper

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Re: Project box
« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2016, 09:17:51 AM »

You probably Know this already !!, but, when trying out your scales, don't forget the Bellows direction reverses in the upper octave !!!

Indeed :)  The recordings are not so much to demonstrate my scale playing, but rather to capture the sounds of each reed in sequence
 
Sorry Jef, "not having a go" It was supposed to be humorous comment in case anyone thought you had replaced the reeds upside down !!  perhaps I didn't phrase it well.

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From Ottery St Mary Devon. Currently Playing Dino Baffetti BP2 in D/G, Hohner Student 1 P.A conversion  in D/G,  Hohner 3515 Pre-Pokerwork in A/D,   2 row "Beaver Brand" in Bb/Eb, Hohner Pre- Erica in G/C .  Single row permanent 4 voice, 4 bass in C from old Hohner single row and bits of a cheap Cajun box !!,

Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2016, 06:24:49 PM »

Sorry Jef, "not having a go" It was supposed to be humorous comment in case anyone thought you had replaced the reeds upside down !!  perhaps I didn't phrase it well.

No worries, Henry.  I'll admit I missed the joke, but I didn't sense any malice :) 
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2016, 08:22:45 PM »

I finished the bass notes block today, which means all the valves have been replaced. 

After some deliberation, I chose the 3 layer vinyl over small vileda valves for the higher octave reeds, mostly because I just finished reading of Theo's dislike for vileda in another thread.  I am beginning to wonder whether leather valves would have been a more appropriate choice all over for this box, given it's relatively low range.  Perhaps I've created opportunity for a future upgrade.

I did take extra care to trim the ends as squarely as I could, with varying degrees of success :)



For the lower octave bass notes, the only valves I had were the large vileda ones, so no deliberation was needed.



So, with everything put back together, I now can make sounds with both sides.  The bass side sounds pretty pleasing to my ear, tuning problems notwithstanding.

Bass notes and chords

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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2016, 10:18:50 PM »

Re-assembly has got me looking ahead a bit to bellows repair.  Quite a few of the leather gussets in the corners have large holes:


With just a quick examination under normal lighting, I count seven gussets with obvious leaks.  Is this something people normally repair, or should it be replaced?
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Lester

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Re: Project box
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2016, 10:31:47 PM »

The holes are patchable, I use Charlie Marshall's replacement diamonds as a source for the leather, trimmed and skived to the size needed and some Fiebing's leather glue.

ps Congrats of the valve trimming  ;)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 10:34:55 PM by Lester »
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2016, 11:48:14 PM »

The holes are patchable, I use Charlie Marshall's replacement diamonds as a source for the leather, trimmed and skived to the size needed and some Fiebing's leather glue.

ps Congrats of the valve trimming  ;)

Thanks, Lester.  I'm sure I'll have more questions about this, but I think the bellows can wait for now. I think I'll be able to muster enough air even in their current, shoddy state to get the valves sorted and attempt a tuning, which brings me to...

What broad strategy to tuning should I take?  From my reading of the archives here, I guess the most usual approaches for the treble side on a two-voice box are:

1. Dedic - One reed (M-) is tuned flat, and the other (M+) is tuned sharp in equal amounts from concert pitch, preferably by a consistent number of Hz to get a constant bear rate of tremolo.

2. Conventional with fixed tremolo -  One reed (M) is tuned to concert pitch, the other reed (M+) is tuned sharp by a consistent number of Hz to get a constant beat rate of tremolo. 

3. Conventional with fixed offset of cents - One reed (M) is tuned to concert pitch, the other reed (M+) is tuned sharp by a consistent number of cents, resulting in slower beat rates for lower pitches and faster beat rates for higher pitches.  Not recommended as tremolo increases to unpleasant beat rates for higher pitches.

4. Conventional with offsets "on the curve" - One reed (M) is tuned to concert pitch, the other (M+) is tuned sharp by a gradually decreasing number of cents, producing a gradually increasing amount of tremolo.  A compromise between #2 and #3. 

Have I described these accurately?  Am I missing any popular approaches?

What I am going for is a fairly traditional sounding tuning for solo playing.  I really like the tuning of McGrooger's D/G Pressed Wood as (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGiSlMtDXR4p) though there may be a bit of reverb confusing my ear.  My inclination is to go with #4, with a somewhat dry tremolo (maybe +8 cents at C4), but I'm unsure how to figure out the curve.  For those of you who tune this way, do you have a baseline profile or amount of stretch that you start with?
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Theo

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Re: Project box
« Reply #113 on: May 03, 2016, 08:09:09 AM »

I usually go with 4, but I determine the curve by ear to get a sound that I like. There are several variables that affect what sounds good:  your personal preference, the overal anount of tremolo, the make and type of reeds, and the make and design of the whole box. 
I think you understand the options very well, now you are ready to start learning from your own experience. I've been tuning as my main job for 10+ years and I'm still learning.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 08:10:48 AM by Theo »
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #114 on: May 04, 2016, 05:02:52 PM »

I think you understand the options very well, now you are ready to start learning from your own experience.

My basic plan is to determine the pitch of each reed with the reed blocks installed, and then again with the reed blocks out of the instrument.  This should give me an idea of how much "box compensation" is needed while tuning on the table.  I'll then tune the "M" reeds to concert pitch (applying compensation for the box as needed), followed by the tremolo reeds.  Finally I'll reinstall and make final adjustments with the reeds installed.

Since I do not have any spare/junk bellows around, I made an adapter to use the project box's bellows to tune.  Nothing fancy, just a couple of frames from some 1/2" birch ply I had in the scrap pile:



The frames are glued to panels bottom and top, with a 1/2 hole drilled in the top:


A nice, snug fit on the bellows:


And away we go...



See it in action here: Tuning Bellows

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Project box
« Reply #115 on: May 04, 2016, 05:16:55 PM »

It's looking good! Nice idea of the adaptor in order to use the instrument's own bellows.  (:)

A couple of tips when using the tuning bellows with the reed block on top, as in your video:

1. You need to be sure that the vent hole in the top plate of the tuning bellows lines up fully with the opening on the reed block. If you only get it partially overlapping, you can still get the reed to sound, but the pitch will almost certainly be a bit flat. As it is difficult to see where the vent hole actually is with the reed block on top, a couple of strips of masking tape carefully positioned on the top plate and lining up with the edge of the reed block will help. Also, draw a couple of extended pencil lines on the top plate which mark the centre lines of the vent hole in both the N-S and E-W directions - these will also help you judge exactly where to place the reed block.

2. When sounding your reeds in this method, try to be consistent with where you place your hand on top of the reed block. You need to hold the block firmly down, but also beware of 'shading' the valves and outflow of air with your hand. If your reed block is not firmly held, again, my experience is that the pitch can be slightly flat.
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Lester

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Re: Project box
« Reply #116 on: May 04, 2016, 05:23:27 PM »

Worthwhile at this point in the project to check that the foot of the reed block is flat, 90% of then ones I have worked on have has a bow of sorts and on some the caused air leaks and all sorts of annoyingly picky things to to find.

Hold a straight edge on the block and look for daylight, if there is some sandpaper on a glass surface will solve the problem

Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #117 on: May 04, 2016, 05:41:54 PM »

It's looking good! Nice idea of the adaptor in order to use the instrument's own bellows.  (:)

A couple of tips when using the tuning bellows with the reed block on top, as in your video:

1. You need to be sure that the vent hole in the top plate of the tuning bellows lines up fully with the opening on the reed block. If you only get it partially overlapping, you can still get the reed to sound, but the pitch will almost certainly be a bit flat. As it is difficult to see where the vent hole actually is with the reed block on top, a couple of strips of masking tape carefully positioned on the top plate and lining up with the edge of the reed block will help. Also, draw a couple of extended pencil lines on the top plate which mark the centre lines of the vent hole in both the N-S and E-W directions - these will also help you judge exactly where to place the reed block.

2. When sounding your reeds in this method, try to be consistent with where you place your hand on top of the reed block. You need to hold the block firmly down, but also beware of 'shading' the valves and outflow of air with your hand. If your reed block is not firmly held, again, my experience is that the pitch can be slightly flat.

Great tips, thanks!  I did, in fact, mark center lines extending from the hole after taking the photos.  You can barely see this in the video.  I imagine a stop block clamped in the right place would also be a great time saver.

Worthwhile at this point in the project to check that the foot of the reed block is flat, 90% of then ones I have worked on have has a bow of sorts and on some the caused air leaks and all sorts of annoyingly picky things to to find.

Yes, I've been wondering about this.  I'm somewhat loath to disturb the gaskets, though.
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Lester

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Re: Project box
« Reply #118 on: May 04, 2016, 05:45:49 PM »

Worthwhile at this point in the project to check that the foot of the reed block is flat, 90% of then ones I have worked on have has a bow of sorts and on some the caused air leaks and all sorts of annoyingly picky things to to find.

Yes, I've been wondering about this.  I'm somewhat loath to disturb the gaskets, though.

Ah! if you have gasket on the blocks I would still check but unless there is a gross problem no need to do anytghing.

Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #119 on: May 04, 2016, 07:16:54 PM »

Ah! if you have gasket on the blocks I would still check but unless there is a gross problem no need to do anytghing.

Oh, good.  They look pretty good with a straight edge against the gaskets.
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