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Author Topic: Project box  (Read 29828 times)

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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #140 on: May 12, 2016, 04:32:33 PM »

Just a quick update for those following progress.  I've finished the Bb block and am about half way through the "M" reeds on the Eb block.  The work is slow, but having completed 50 or so reeds, I feel like I'm getting the hang of it.  I also made some small changes to top of my tuning bellows frame:



I've added slots for an adjustable fence, rather than just using clamps, and drilled a 2nd hole (covered by a post-it for now) so I can listen to both reeds at once.



Here you can see the whole set-up, along with files and the Peterson strobe tuner app running on an iPad.  (Yes, I was humming a G to wake the screen for this photo.  ;D )

Hopefully, I will have the treble reeds finished today.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 04:54:14 PM by Jef »
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #141 on: May 14, 2016, 04:51:32 PM »

I've now got all the treble reeds tuned up - without a lot of scrutiny, I think they sound pretty fantastic.  I'm pleased with the amount of tremolo and the spread of it.  Just to get a starting point, I settled on a beat rate of 4.5 @ a4 (440), which works out to ~18 cents, and then adjusted the beat rate in .2 bps steps for each semitone offset from a4.  This means the change in beatrate is constant, relative to the musical note, ranging from about 1.3 beats to around 8.8:


(* The jaggedness of the line is an artifact of rounding the beat rate numbers to the nearest tenth)

Of all these, only one sounded really harsh to my ear, so I simply adjusted the rate down by flattening the M+ reed until my ear was pleased.  I plan to fine tune everything once the basses are finished.  My intended approach on the basses is just tune everything to concert pitch and then sweeten by ear.  How do you all approach tuning the bass side?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 05:00:57 PM by Jef »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Project box
« Reply #142 on: May 14, 2016, 10:50:58 PM »

I've now got all the treble reeds tuned up - without a lot of scrutiny, I think they sound pretty fantastic.  I'm pleased with the amount of tremolo and the spread of it.  Just to get a starting point, I settled on a beat rate of 4.5 @ a4 (440), which works out to ~18 cents, and then adjusted the beat rate in .2 bps steps for each semitone offset from a4.  This means the change in beatrate is constant, relative to the musical note, ranging from about 1.3 beats to around 8.8:

Wow - that's really wet at the top end, but if that's what you like, fair enough. I don't normally go wetter than a beat rate of 5.5 Hz at the top end of a typical Hohner Pokerwork/Erica. I attach the tuning curve which I've gradually developed over the last few years, which gives a nice mellow tremolo without being too wild. I use the curve as a guide, but as always, the final adjustments are done by ear, deviating from the curve slightly, depending on how the particular instrument sounds when in play.

Quote
My intended approach on the basses is just tune everything to concert pitch and then sweeten by ear.  How do you all approach tuning the bass side?

Here's what I do, mostly having learned from Theo and Rees.

I tune the bass end in situ in the instrument as follows:

1. Bass reeds:
(a) Lowest bass reeds tuned about 2 cents sharp. Reason - there is a second or two time delay before the reed reaches proper pitch. Tuning the reed sharp partially compensates for this, otherwise the flatness of the transient phase is noticeable.

(b) Middle (if fitted) and upper bass reeds tuned to pitch.

2. Chord reeds:
(a) Tonic notes tuned to pitch.

(b) Fifths tuned about 2 cents sharp. Reason - in equal temperament, fifths are too narrow and result in a noticeable beat if the chord is sounded without thirds in. Tuning the fifths 2 cents sharp results in a nice pure beatless bare fifth chord.

(c) Major thirds tuned about 5 cents flat. Reason - in equal temperament the thirds are too bright and rough sounding. Ideally they should be about 14 - 15 cents flat, but that's normally too much to avoid clashing with the right-hand notes. 5 cents flat is a useful compromise and gives a sweet-sounding chord.

(d) minor thirds ideally need to be about 7 cents sharp to sound nice, but again this may clash with the right-hand notes. I usually tune the minor thirds to ET pitch (zero cents offset) and they sound is OK. 
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #143 on: May 15, 2016, 03:20:44 AM »

I attach the tuning curve which I've gradually developed over the last few years, which gives a nice mellow tremolo without being too wild.

Ha!  I guess I should have asked if anybody had a neatly documented tuning curve they liked as a starting point for old Hohners before I took my guess :)  The jury is still out on whether it's too wet, very possibly so.  I'll decide once I have the bass side.

Thanks the advice on approach to the bass side - it's exactly this kind of knowledge that makes great sense,  but would take a long time to find by trial and error.
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Theo

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Re: Project box
« Reply #144 on: May 15, 2016, 11:43:42 AM »

and then adjusted the beat rate in .2 bps steps for each semitone offset from a4. 

I am intrigued to know how you measure the beat rate to that degree of precision as you are tuning?
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #145 on: May 15, 2016, 03:04:39 PM »

and then adjusted the beat rate in .2 bps steps for each semitone offset from a4. 

I am intrigued to know how you measure the beat rate to that degree of precision as you are tuning?

I'm referring to the beat rate I am trying to achieve - the "on paper" target.  By "adjusted" I mean I calculated the offset from A4.  Sorry if I was unclear.  To get the desired beat rate, I am tuning to particular values of hertz for a pair of reeds.  For instance, to get 3.3 beats from Eb4, I tune one reed to 311.1 hz, and the other to 313.4 hz.  I am not measuring beat rate in real time.

Now, whether I am able to successfully accomplish anything like a tenth of hertz of discrimination on the actual reeds is another question altogether.  Most probably not.  But it is useful to have the target placed accurately, even if my marksmanship is poor.
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #146 on: May 17, 2016, 06:01:14 PM »

Newbie question - when tuning the bass in-situ, how do you mute the reeds you do not want to sound when they share an air hole?  For instance, if I want to tune the low Ab fundamental reed, how do I stop the high one from sounding?  Tape the reeds/valves?
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Lester

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Re: Project box
« Reply #147 on: May 17, 2016, 06:42:47 PM »

Newbie question - when tuning the bass in-situ, how do you mute the reeds you do not want to sound when they share an air hole?  For instance, if I want to tune the low Ab fundamental reed, how do I stop the high one from sounding?  Tape the reeds/valves?

I usually shove a bit of post-it-note/business card between the reed and the reed plate to stop it sounding.

Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #148 on: May 17, 2016, 06:49:39 PM »

I usually shove a bit of post-it-note/business card between the reed and the reed plate to stop it sounding.

Ah - thanks, Lester.  I was mentally stuck on the pull reeds, but of course one can just lift them through and slip something between the lifted reed and the plate.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Project box
« Reply #149 on: May 18, 2016, 01:12:28 AM »

Newbie question - when tuning the bass in-situ, how do you mute the reeds you do not want to sound when they share an air hole?  For instance, if I want to tune the low Ab fundamental reed, how do I stop the high one from sounding?  Tape the reeds/valves?

Theo showed me the 'Marc Serafini' method. Marc is a highly respected melodeon maker in France.
You need some masking tape (painter's tape in the US?).

1. Cut a piece of masking tape roughly the same size as the reed plate. Slightly larger is OK.

2. Dab the sticky side of the tape a couple of times on an item of clothing such as a T-shirt or trouser leg. This reduces the adhesive strength significantly whilst still retaining enough to do the job.

3. Place the tape on the entire reed plate, over both the reed tongue and the valve. Smooth gently into place, moulding any overlap over the edges of the reed plate. This effectively silences both push and pull reeds on the reed plate whilst you work on adjacent reeds.

4. To remove the tape, use tweezers to gently lift the tape away, starting at the rivet end of the reed plate, then peel off the tape carefully, keeping the tape close to, and parallel to, the reed plate (a bit like peeling a banana). If you are reasonably careful, you will not damage the valve. (If the valve does come away, it probably was not secured properly in the first place, and would be about to fail anyway!)

5. Once removed, the piece of masking tape is usually good for another two or three reed plates before you need to cut a fresh piece of tape.

This method works brilliantly and I now always use it in preference to any other. Thanks Theo and thanks Marc!  (:)  :|glug
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Steve
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2016, 03:41:25 PM »

Great info, Steve - thanks for passing it down. 

I has tried using the sticky part trimmed from a post-it note to do this, thinking the relative weakness of the sticky backing would be less likely to harm the valve, but it was too fiddly to work around the pins securing the bottom of the reed plates.  With waxed-in reed plates it might be easier.

You need some masking tape (painter's tape in the US?).

We call it masking tape, too.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Project box
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2016, 07:39:32 PM »

Great info, Steve - thanks for passing it down. 

I has tried using the sticky part trimmed from a post-it note to do this, thinking the relative weakness of the sticky backing would be less likely to harm the valve, but it was too fiddly to work around the pins securing the bottom of the reed plates.  With waxed-in reed plates it might be easier.

The beauty of masking tape is that it is flexible enough to 'flow' around pins and screws. Post-it note paper is a bit too rigid to do this successfully.
The masking tape doesn't necessarily have to cover the pins. Just so long as it covers length of the valve and reed tongue plus a bit extra to the sides.
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Steve
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #152 on: May 20, 2016, 10:11:00 PM »

Worked on the bass side a little more today.  Here's a couple of "action shots":

The clamp on bellows hanger as suggested by Theo:


A couple of short nails are driven into the sides to hang the bellows straps so we can rest the bellows:



Using a piece of card stock wedged under the reeds to mute them, as described by Lester:



Or the "Marc Serafini" method using masking tape, as described by Steve, with apologies for the lack of precision.  I like this way better because I'm still clumsy with the reed lifter, and this doesn't require the lifting of reeds:



And here's me trying very hard not to muck up any valves.



I still have some fine tuning to do, but the tuning of the bass side is very much improved:

Basses - Demo
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mr hohner

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Re: Project box
« Reply #153 on: May 21, 2016, 04:18:16 PM »

That bass end sound beautiful, well done!!!
 (:)
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #154 on: May 23, 2016, 08:50:48 PM »

That bass end sound beautiful, well done!!!
 (:)
Thank you kindly :)

Today, I thought I'd show the new base-plate I made for the fingerboard.  I am not sure if the fingerboard is original to the instrument or the addition of a later craftsman.  It's constructed in three pieces, with a nice rounded slope transitioning between the rows:


After applying the new, thicker pallet facing material, I felt the thickness of the fingerboard base left too little room for travel to get the pallets lifted enough.  Also the feel of the action seemed too shallow to me, and I wanted some space for a soft material to dampen the clacking of the levers against the wood - though I suppose a simpler solution would be to learn not to push the buttons too far.

So, I cut a new base plate from some 1/4" Lauan I had on hand, and routed a recess for the levers and some padding:



I used some leftover Olovisc to soften the inside surface, stacked for the buttons on the inside row to get consistent travel:



Although this was meant as a prototype, I couldn't resist wiping on a little stain.  It's not a great color match, but similar:



The clearance is still maybe a wee bit shallow - but tolerable.  I will probably remake this once I settle on a material for the grill, and put some effort into color matching the existing stain and aged shellac.  If anyone has any tips on matching old finishes, I'd love to hear them.

Also, here's a new sound clip with the bass and treble in action together.  I'm still undecided about whether it's too wet, but the lower end sounds pretty sweet to me.

With Treble Demo
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Winston Smith

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Re: Project box
« Reply #155 on: May 23, 2016, 10:06:33 PM »

That's the melodeon sound which my mind produces out of nowhere; it's really lovely!
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Project box
« Reply #156 on: May 24, 2016, 01:34:02 AM »

This is coming along really nicely and the soundcloud clip is very sweet indeed. Well done!

Whenever the pallets are refaced, the action height will nearly always need adjusting to accommodate the different travel distance because of the increased facing thickness. It's easy to do but (like many melodeon-related jobs) just needs a bit of care.

Basically, you just bend the pallet arm slightly, by very gently pulling the pallet arm away from the pallet board against the resistance of the button arm when it has come up against its natural stop position. The aim is to reduce the angle of the 'L'-shaped lever slightly so that when the pallet is in its closed position, the button height is now raised a little higher from the keyboard surface. You can grasp the pallet arms with your fingers or round-nosed pliers to do the job, but a tool a bit like a crochet hook makes it easier.

If you go too far with the bend, simply hold the pallet firmly closed with your finger, then gently press down on the button to bend the lever back the other way.

When done, sight along the length of the keyboard to check that all the buttons are at the same height, and adjust as necessary.
You may also find that the buttons may become misaligned from central in the keyboard holes, causing rubbing against the sides of the holes when pressed. The remedy is again to gently bend the lever arm, this time using thin round-nosed pliers down the annulus of the hole and button to just tweak the alignment slightly.
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Jef

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Re: Project box
« Reply #157 on: May 24, 2016, 07:47:57 PM »

That's the melodeon sound which my mind produces out of nowhere; it's really lovely!

That's very kind.  Thank you.

This is coming along really nicely and the soundcloud clip is very sweet indeed. Well done!

Whenever the pallets are refaced, the action height will nearly always need adjusting to accommodate the different travel distance because of the increased facing thickness. It's easy to do but (like many melodeon-related jobs) just needs a bit of care.

Thanks, Steve.  And thanks (once again) for providing a very concise description of a common job.  It may also be worth noting that some fingerboards offer a greater range of adjustment than others. I adjusted the buttons to within 1mm or so of the point where levers bump the upper plate of the fingerboard. 



This gets the buttons to a resting point where the bottom of the button doesn't quite clear the hole.



With the newly recessed and padded bottom plate, the domed top of the button stays just above the surface when fully depressed.




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Winston Smith

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Re: Project box
« Reply #158 on: May 24, 2016, 08:42:54 PM »

I can certainly see the point of setting the upper limit of travel for the levers; no clacking against the fingerboard, but I'm still stumped by the need for restricting the downward travel. (Unless your fingers are small enough to disappear down the holes, that is.
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Re: Project box
« Reply #159 on: May 25, 2016, 12:46:47 AM »

Because (I imagine - others please correct me) you want a natural cessation to the downward push. If you have to guess (or predetermine) when to stop pushing then it requires a much more complex motion -  like pulling a punch. It is what I imagine playing a Theramin is like -  no obvious place to land. maybe it is my clarinet playing days talking, but that just wouldn't be possible to play with precision without a bump stop.
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