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Author Topic: Need some basic info on pickups please  (Read 19982 times)

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Open_G

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2007, 05:30:32 PM »

And ..... if you are going to be moving around, for Pete (of Ebor?)'s sake look into getting some kind of radio setup. They're fairly inexpensive and can save you tripping up and damaging your box.

And you can go out front and have a listen -but for the local dog's sake, stay away from the speaker cabs ( and why, oh why do callers think that telling me "it sounds a bit boomy" is any help at all? or my personal favourite in empty sports halls- "can you get rid of that echo?" )
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Mike Gott

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2007, 06:45:56 PM »

The tie-clip mic has certainly worked well for me. However - a cautionary tale.......

We were setting up to play at a ceilidh in Scunthorpe. I had a tie clip mic fitted to a 1-row which I had on a fairly long strap which meant that the melodeon was held fairly low down on my body. I'd successfully sound checked and the banjo player - who best remain anonymous - stepped in front of me to sound check his instrument into a mic. He lent slightly forward to do this, and as he did so he, er, broke wind rather violently (we'd all been for a curry earlier). Unfortunately at the moment he did so the mic on my melodeon was only a few inches from the back of his trousers and it picked up and amplified the lot, just as the audience were trooping into the hall...

Mike
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Paul Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2007, 09:09:12 AM »

We were setting up to play at a ceilidh in Scunthorpe.

Wahay! Scunthorpe!

Gus V

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2007, 05:14:33 PM »

I found this:
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,981,pid,981,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html
while idly surfing AKG's site one day. The part that jumped out at me was that it is apparently designed for accordions. If you look at the User Manual it has suggestion tips for putting it on a box (a piano box, but it's close enough here). I know that Squeezy uses something similar, does anyone have any experience with this model?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 07:48:27 PM by Gus V »
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Bill Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2007, 05:39:40 PM »

I found this:
http://www.kdingo.net/champ/pics/main.php?g2_itemId=4020
while idly surfing AKG's site one day.
Wrong link, perhaps? Doesn't seem to have anything to do with mics / accordions.
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Gus V

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2007, 07:48:53 PM »

oops, sorry. Fixed it.
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Paul Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2007, 09:47:13 PM »

I found this:
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,981,pid,981,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html
while idly surfing AKG's site one day. The part that jumped out at me was that it is apparently designed for accordions. If you look at the User Manual it has suggestion tips for putting it on a box (a piano box, but it's close enough here). I know that Squeezy uses something similar, does anyone have any experience with this model?

I think I noticed these too when I was browsing for mics. It looks similar to the Opus 62 I've ordered, except the Opus 62 doesn't need phantom power.

I like the fact that this one has an attachment you screw to the instrument, and then slot the mic into that, so they'd be easy to put on and take off. I'm hoping to come up with something similar for the Opus 62. They have clips suitable for attaching them to brass instruments, so I thought maybe I could screw a couple of suitable things onto my box that I could clip them onto. Seems like I might get away with not making any extra holes too -

On the bass side I plan to remove the lower front foot and use the same screw to replace it with something that the clip can attach to (obviously something which is ok to be touching the floor when I put the melodeon down) and on the top of the treble side, right at the corner, near the grill, there's an extra button for sticking the bellows strap to when playing (which I never use), so should be able to use that hole and screw there. That seems like it'd get the mics in the right places. Of course this is all just theory since I'm still waiting for the mic to arrive. When it does and I've checked the sound I'll go and have a rummage through the hardware at a DIY store - heavy picture-hanging brackets and the like - and let you know if I find anything suitable and if it works.

Howard Jones

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2007, 11:56:25 AM »

I found this:
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,981,pid,981,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html
while idly surfing AKG's site one day. The part that jumped out at me was that it is apparently designed for accordions. If you look at the User Manual it has suggestion tips for putting it on a box (a piano box, but it's close enough here). I know that Squeezy uses something similar, does anyone have any experience with this model?

This looks like a replacement for the C416, which doesn't seem to be listed on AKG's site any longer.  You can either use phantom power (with an adaptor) or a battery pack.

I've been very pleased with the C416, except that they don't seem particularly robust for a mic designed for stage use.  I've broken two - one when it got caught in the lead and broke the plastic barrel, and the second when the plastic spring which clips into the mount on the instrument broke from fatigue.  My insurance paid out both times, though.

The C516 has a slightly different mount, so maybe this will be less vulnerable.

The mount for the C416 can be screwed onto the instrument, but they also supply some sticky "putty", which works fine and can be removed without damaging the instrument.  Unfortunately, AKG only supply one mounting bracket, and getting more of these out of them seems to be next to impossible, so if you want to use it on more than one instrument you've got a problem. 

Squeezy uses a similar model (I forget the number) which is the same mic but with a spring clamp rather than the mounting bracket.  This is easier to switch between instruments, but assumes you've something to clamp it to - my instrument doesn't have anywhere suitable and I didn't want to have to butcher the box to fit something.

For the bass end, I've followed Andy Cutting's suggestion of a Tandy PZM unscrewed from it's base plate and fitted inside the case. A 1/4" jack socket fits neatly into one of the soundholes.  Unfortunately Tandy PSMs are no longer made, but they sometimes come up on Ebay.

Paul Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2008, 08:28:21 AM »

Update: the first Opus 62 arrived. I tried it out on each end of the melodeon through my PC and through a guitar amp. The sound seemed pretty good so I've ordered a second one.

So now another question - does anybody know of anything I can get that has 2 XLR inputs that I can control the volumes for independently and that then has one 1/4" output so that from a soundman's perspective it'll just be like plugging in a guitar? This seems like a better option than just handing over the XLR cables, partly so I can adjust the balance of the two mics myself, and partly because the cables don't detach at the mic end, so I can't "unplug" myself.

Radio setups were mentioned. This could be a possibility if anyone knows of one I can plug the 2 XLRs into and that isn't too expensive (since buying the two mics has caused me to slightly run out of money).

Oh and a note on the attaching-to-the-melodeon side of things - as mentioned previously my melodeon has one of those extra buttons for attaching the bellows strap to, to keep it out of the way. I found that when the strap is attached to this, the microphone clips onto it and sits in the right place very conveniently, as illustrated. For testing purposes on the bass side I attached the mic low down on the bass strap. It worked and stayed out of the way of the hand, but some movement would be innevitable so this probably isn't ideal. I'll try to figure something else out.



Theo

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2008, 09:13:13 AM »

So now another question - does anybody know of anything I can get that has 2 XLR inputs that I can control the volumes for independently and that then has one 1/4" output so that from a soundman's perspective it'll just be like plugging in a guitar? This seems like a better option than just handing over the XLR cables, partly so I can adjust the balance of the two mics myself, and partly because the cables don't detach at the mic end, so I can't "unplug" myself.

From the soundmands point of view:

Stick with XLR, most mixing desks use xlr connectors for mic inputs.  Guitar inputs with jack connectors generally have different electrical characteristics, so your mics will have the best match to the input of the mixing desk if you stick with xlr

Don't try to find a box to combine the two mic leads.  The soundman is in a much better position than you to judge the balance between your two inputs.  Its also one less bit of kit to go wrong.
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2008, 09:34:57 AM »

Speaking with my soundman's hat on, I entirely agree with Theo. You (or someone!) will not only need to determine the balance between the mics, but they'll also need quite different EQ, and it's MUCH easier and better all round to leave that to the soundperson. 

Incidentally, if someone presents me with a jack lead/socket, it goes into a DI box to give me a balanced XLR input to the desk; converting your mic output (which I presume is a balanced signal) to an unbalanced jack would just be adding unnecessary complications and, more importantly, compromising the quality of your signal.

Graham
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 03:55:57 PM by GPS »
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IanD

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2008, 04:07:35 PM »

If you swap between boxes which are significantly different volume (like I do) a stand mic on the treble end means that you can play closer or further away to equalise the volume -- in my case about a foot for the Oakwood, 9" for the 3-row Dony, 6" for the G/C Tommy.

I use a clip-on mic on a short gooseneck for the bass end which clips to the bottom of the strap so it's easy to swap over, and is always a consistent distance from the box (unlike a stand mic, which almost invariably leads to feedback problems as well because it can't be close enough with bass end movement).

JTS CX508  http://tinyurl.com/2ctxpv

It does need phantom power from the desk (XLR connector), but then there's no battery to go flat.

If you don't swap boxes and can find something on the box to fasten it onto I suspect this would also work for the treble end.

Ian
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Paul Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 02:47:58 PM »

Thanks for the most recent batch of information.

Last Saturday I played my first amped-up gig with the two Opus 62's and was generally pleased. As suggested I just plugged the two XLR's straight into the mixing desk. We didn't actually have a soundman, and there wasn't much time for a soundcheck, so i didn't get any time to fiddle with EQ, just left it on medium and adjusted the levels of the two ends. It didn't sound too bad, but hopefully with a proper soundman or some more time to play with the settings it could be better.

I now definately, definately want some sort of wireless radio setup. Whilst not having to play into mics on stands gave me some degree of freedom to stomp around the stage a bit, I was having a little trouble with tripping over my wires, and with getting them tangled when picking up, putting down, and taking off one of the mics to use it on my fiddle (which it also sounded very nice on). So, can anybody recommend anything? The only wireless kit I've found so far is either specifically designed for guitar, with just one jack input, or comes with a mic attached to it. I need something I can plug both my XLR's into. Any ideas??

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 03:14:53 PM »

There is a guy across the Channel who might be able to help with sound issues (perhaps you know him already):
Bernard Loffet

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Paul Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 03:19:30 PM »

I just found this:

http://www.kksound.com/dualchannel.html

Please correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure I probably am) but it seems like this might be really handy. I can plug my two mics into it (I've got XLR-jack adapters for them) there's independent EQ controls for the two channels inside which I can get right at home which will solve problems like the last gig when there's no soundman, and no time for setting EQ on the board, and it has a line level jack output so should be compatible with plugging in like a guitar at open mic nights and possibly using a guitar-style wireless system with it?

If I'm right about all that then it seems like a good buy. If I'm not then do please tell me why. (Don't worry about making me feel stupid.)  :)

Theo

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2008, 03:32:16 PM »

But you don't need a preamp!  See most recent post by GPS which applies here too.   Forget about jacks.  You now have balanced XLR connectors which are superior.  When I was completely green and buying my first sound system I was fortunate to be advised by Sounds Live in Newcastle who made it abundantly clear that where there is a choice between jack and XLR connectors that I should avoid jacks.

And, if you don't have time for a soundcheck, a two into one box is only giving you the illusion of EQ/balance  'cos you still can't hear what you sound like from out front.



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oldclubII

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 03:35:30 PM »

It looks like it has 1/4-in jacks for the inputs so if your mics have XLR plugs you will need adapters and the signal won't be balanced. The output is also using 1/4-in jacks and doesn't seem balanced either.

Not much of a problem for short cables but it does not look "up-to-date" technically, usually pro-level stuff uses XLR. Judging by the absence of XLR connectors it seems that this box is made for instruments (guitars, keyboards) and not microphones. 

Besides, you would have this box clipped to your belt, which would connect to a wireless box, both with a battery. Twice as many worries that something may go wrong!
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Paul Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 03:40:15 PM »

There is a guy across the Channel who might be able to help with sound issues (perhaps you know him already):
Bernard Loffet



Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of this chap. Looks like he makes really nice instruments too. The pickup system looks really slick. Two things about it: 1. It's installed in the melodeon 2. It has two independent outputs. Now if I were in a position where I was certain I was sticking with the melodeon I had long-term, and also I was playing gigs with a good soundman etc. I'd consider these really good points, and if I'm ever in that situation I may look at this system in the future.

Trouble is I'm currently in a position where I'm not sure how long I'll be sticking with my current instrument, and a lot of the gigs I'll be playing in the foreseeable future are going to be along the lines of "here's our PA system, do what you can with it". Plus I just bought those two mics so I want to give them a chance first.  ;) So what I'm looking for at the moment is something that gives me a bit of control myself and that can be moved from instrument to instrument.  ???

Paul Young

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2008, 03:42:13 PM »

I should perhaps confess at this point that I don't know what "balanced" means. I'll try to find something on the internet that'll tell me..

oldclubII

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Re: Need some basic info on pickups please
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2008, 03:46:07 PM »

In a nutshell, a "balanced" connection means that the signal is carried using 3 wires and a noise-suppression technique that cancels any interference that may be picked-up by the cables. In other words: clean sound. All pro sound equipment uses XLR balanced connections.
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