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Author Topic: Kite Scottish - French Tune  (Read 6017 times)

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Ebor_fiddler

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Kite Scottish - French Tune
« on: March 10, 2016, 09:46:33 PM »

I'm trying to get hold of the dots for the above tune, which keeps coming up at our session in Leeds, but I've come to a halt with my researches. Can anyone help me please? abc, jpg, pdf or any medium you may have will be gratefully received.

Thank you,

Chris B.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2016, 12:25:53 AM »

I'm not getting anywhere trying to find this Chris, perhaps the session people have the wrong name for the tune or perhaps they have the dots. You may have reached the 'folk process wall' - learned by ear, no name noted at the time, tune now slightly re-written, pumped out at a session with a made up name. Not uncommon, I site Michael Turner's Waltz as an example. Apparently the tune was nicked off some German geezer who had it in a collection of six German dances that he published a couple of years before, he will have nicked it from some hapless bugger before him of course but we don't get to hear of that.

The folk process is a bit of a devil really.  >:E
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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2016, 08:47:48 AM »

A long shot, but it's not John Spiers' Red Kites , is it?
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911377brian

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2016, 12:28:09 PM »

I'm sure 'The Kite' is in one of that Lewes tune books but I'm not able to check at present.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2016, 01:49:29 PM »

There's a hornpipe called the kite
X: 1
T:Kite Hornpipe TS.123
M:C|
L:1/8
Q:1/2=90
S:Thomas Sands' MS,1810,Lincolnshire
R:.hornpipe
O:Lincolnshire
Z:vmp.Ruairidh Greig, 2011
K:Bb
fg/a/|bBba gfed|efgB BAGF|GBAc Bdce|dfgB BAGF|!
bBba gfed|efgB BAGF|GBAc Bdce|dfgA B2:|!
|:GF/E/|DBFB DBFB|EBGB EBGB|EecA EecA|edcB AGFE|!
DBFB DBFB|EBGB EBGB|EecA EecA|B2B2B2:|]


Was the hapless bugger that michael turner's  waltz got nicked off Mozart by any chance?
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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2016, 02:18:02 PM »

Yes. Mozart K.536 : Six German Dances. In one of them, the "Trio" part of the "Minuet and Trio" is the tune of Michael Turner's Waltz.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2016, 09:55:03 PM »

I tried googling for the french word milan, but combining that will "scottish(e)" just got me a load of football videos.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2016, 10:29:51 PM »

Sorry to have been slow to reply. I have been too busy to check the forum for the last couple of days.

The tune you want is one of Les Panards Dansants staples, which is probably why you are encountering it in Leeds, and it is called The Kite Scottish. A pdf of the dots is attached.
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playandteach

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2016, 12:25:33 AM »

Can't quite believe the Bm chords in the B section. What do you play there? Still hoping to take you up on the offer of trying out your Guais as soon as I can get some time.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2016, 03:15:53 PM »

The bass line is mine: I play the Bm and like the tension created by it. There are those who would play G chords but that would give a major feel to that part of the tune which, to my ear is too 'heavy' for this particular tune. Chacun à son goût!

You're welcome to try the Guais, if you are ever in striking distance of Wensleydale. Alternatively, I shall be at Sidmouth and Whitby Folk Weeks in August, at the Panards Festival somewhere near Hebden Bridge or Todmorden in October and, hopefully, at Melodeons at Witney in November.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 03:19:08 PM by Bob Ellis »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 08:54:12 AM »

["It is written"] ;) that this tune is in Am with a natural F (6th) making it aolean mode. That's to say it is a mode of C diatonic scale.

As per above Bm is "out" of this as its triad runs B,D,F# (G diatonic scale). But in essence Bob's just moving the structure into A dorian (mode of G) where it would be the expected chord. as such it's totally legal harmony. just not quite as "sweet".

The frisson in such manouevres comes from friction against the aolian characteristic notes in the tune, notably 3rd (C) and its Neapolitan 6th (F nat). If you look, there are F's played quite close to his Bm, but never over it. That's to say the ear is told to "expect" F# but then gets F.

So yes, "tension", but as it resolves soon enough - a perfectly legal musical gambit. It's a matter of whether you like it. [thus endeth the Lesson]

I'm presently re-interpretting a lot of my old songs as semi blues, closely related, and this sort of thing happens all the time. You can change the note sung, but it is more subtle to change the chord. eg commony I like an F chord laid against an Am dorian - exactly the same thing in reverse.

See you in Whitby, Bob, and really look forward to trying the new box! I've just fixed Chalap week with Didier Laloy/ Bruno leTron week before :Ph so may be a day or so late 8)
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playandteach

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 06:16:46 PM »

The frisson in such manouevres comes from friction against the aolian characteristic notes in the tune, notably 3rd (C) and its Neapolitan 6th (F nat). If you look, there are F's played quite close to his Bm, but never over it. That's to say the ear is told to "expect" F# but then gets F.

I can't resist a little nudge at your Neapolitan 6th, - the Neapolitan 6th is a chord on the flattened supertonic in first inversion - rather than an individual note. So for an F natural to feature in this guise the key would have to be E - making the flattened supertonic F, and it would have to be over an A bass. Great chord - see Brahms' use of it in this clip (the repeated dissonance around 1min 56")
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2016, 07:58:35 PM »

While I know that my bass line for Kite Scottish may offend some purists, I thought long and hard about it and will attempt to explain the logic behind my choice. The main problem with this lovely tune is that it is virtually all on the pull on my G/D/acc. melodeons, so I needed to find somewhere to grab some air. The sustained E note half way through the A music is the most obvious place because I can play a pushed E on my accidental row. Logically, G or C basses would fit against the E, but neither sound right to me. They made the tune sound major rather than minor, whereas the Bm basses introduced a rather nice modal quality. I could also have substituted a D chord for the Bm in the last bar of the A music, but I liked the sound of the sequence of F, Bm and Am block chords.

Similarly, I chose to use Bm chords against the sustained G notes in the B music because they give the tune a modal quality, whereas the alternatives available on the push create a suggest that the tune is heading temporarily into major territory. Em would work, but playing the G notes on the pull would require awkward adjustments elsewhere in order to compensate for the preponderance of pulled notes.

You're welcome to play my Guais at Whitby, Chris. Come to think if it, you could have done so at Whitby 2015 because I had it with me.
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playandteach

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2016, 10:04:18 PM »

I'm in no way a purist, and a long way from offended. Just jealous because I can't play a Bm chord.
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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2016, 11:12:01 PM »

I can't resist a little nudge at your Neapolitan 6th, - the Neapolitan 6th is a chord on the flattened supertonic in first inversion - rather than an individual note. So for an F natural to feature in this guise the key would have to be E - making the flattened supertonic F, and it would have to be over an A bass. Great chord - see Brahms' use of it in this clip (the repeated dissonance around 1min 56")

Got my theory in the Grenoble school (which borders on anal) and they use the terms wrt a note. Specifically use of a "natural" 6th (here F) in a minor scale, contrasting with augmented (F#) of the dorian minor. I'm happy to accept that term might have other usage. Music theory is like that. Especially (frankly) in respect to minor harmony! 

In essence "minorness" whatever that might be, seems to start with a minor 3rd, and whan the 5th of the scale is also "b" , OK, you truly know where you are. The state of the 6th and 7th notes of the scale seem to be "negotiable". I was taught that historically  "Neapolitan" refered to the "Church" minor. Specifically the scale ABCDEFGA, the "relative minor" of C. A scale that implies Dm and Em as its sub/dominants. but in the end its "about" how you feel ar the moment whan you play the note.?     
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 11:15:38 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2016, 11:24:53 PM »

Hi Bob et al. I can't find this tune on Youtube and your conversation would suggest that it should be a nice one. Please could someone post a video or confirm a link.
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playandteach

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2016, 11:44:49 PM »

Sorry for the nudge. I also can't find a video clip of this tune - so a link would be welcome too by me.
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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2016, 11:50:32 PM »

Budge: I am snowed under at the moment - giving a presentation on the traditional dance music of the Yorkshire Dales tomorrow, with other commitments on Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday and Monday - so I can't promise to record Kite Scottish within the next few days, but I will try to find the time as soon as I can, unless anyone else wants to record it.

Playandteach: If you don't have a Bm chord, you can always play a Bm7 (B fundamental + D chord).
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playandteach

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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2016, 11:57:35 PM »

I guess I'd need to put it into G/C talk. A minor is my habitat on that instrument but no B bass notes on my 8 bass. No worries I'll find another way. Thanks, Bob.
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Re: Kite Scottish - French Tune
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 08:21:11 AM »

Playandteach: If you don't have a Bm chord, you can always play a Bm7 (B fundamental + D chord).[/color]

I guess I'd need to put it into G/C talk. A minor is my habitat on that instrument but no B bass notes on my 8 bass. No worries I'll find another way. Thanks, Bob.

That would be Em7 on a G/C box: push E bass and push G chord together. Sounds best with the thirds in the chords switched in (if you have a choice).
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