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Author Topic: questions about the Castagnari Max  (Read 24520 times)

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Theo

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2016, 09:33:12 AM »

I think we are at risk of missing the point here, which from Melodeon's posts I take to be about aesthetics and craftsmanship.  If you are a maker or mender of anything you are unusual if you don't take personal satisfaction from the quality of your work. This doesn't just apply to jointing techniques but to a whole gamut of small and large details.  Some of these details are visible and obvious some are hidden.  They are the makers way of showing they care about their products. Many have no effect on sound or playability.  Some examples.  A lot of care goes into grill designs to make them visually satisfying as well as letting sound out and they also have a purpose in being recognisable.  Internal details are important too.  Look inside a box and you can tell a lot about the care with which it has been built by looking for well finished internal surfaces, neat glue lines, absence of wax dribbles on reed blocks etc, etc. 

I believe this is the kind of thought process behind Melodeon's criticism of butted joints, and tacky aluminium corner plates. It's a point of view I wholeheartedly agree with.  But I'm probably biased by the number of times I've had to undo ham fisted repairs.
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Winston Smith

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2016, 10:25:03 AM »

"There's a LOT of long grain glued to long grain in a dovetailed joint."

With respect, that depends wholly on the thickness of the pieces to be joined.

In my (limited) experience of producing dovetail joints, I'd be very surprised to find one (made by a real craftsman) which required any glue at all! But as the vast majority of melodeons seem to be mass produced, or at least manufactured with some level of economy in mind, I doubt that we'll ever see such skill and time employed in them. (I certainly won't in my end of the market, haha)
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Steve C.

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2016, 06:58:18 PM »

From Theo:  "Internal details are important too.  Look inside a box and you can tell a lot about the care with which it has been built by looking for well finished internal surfaces, neat glue lines, absence of wax dribbles on reed blocks etc, etc."

I would add that "especially".  It's the attention to the stuff that doesn't show that often adds value, once one gets beyond great tone, great playability, nice casework, etc.

Reason why some expensive, even some cheap, mechanical watches have saphire backs?
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melodeon

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2016, 09:53:22 PM »

""Exceptionalism"? But only if you stick to someone else's basic pattern of mass production?

If I was making a melodeon I'd use a mix of joints (mitred, butted and dovetailed!) just to spite the traditionalists! And I still don't believe that the little bit of extra gluing surface on a mitred joint would make any appreciable (practical) difference to the joints inherent strength.

"Point 2.  Shall we test a violin and see if it breaks, then why an accordion ?"

What a silly response! I should imagine that violin makers (like makers of most things, including accordions) test their instruments for resistance to breakage. The point, which I thought was obvious, was whether reinforced joints of both or either type had been tested. 

"Point 3..   " how many will ever see them.. ?"
Not the point at all.  I look inside ............... boxes... you'll see.... all you need to know without ever playing one.

I don't quite understand this point. If you're looking for quality workmanship, I'd certainly expect to find dovetailed joints (which, of course, entail joining end grain to long grain. Oh my!) and not the unskilled mitred kind of joint which you seem to prefer.

Horse for courses, I suppose. Either of those two joints is (evidently) quite acceptable in melodeon construction, but to argue the respective merits of either is like comparing a red toy accordion to a blue toy accordion when, really, you should be looking at a vintage Hohner! (Or whatever else you judge to be a "quality" instrument.)"

Please do not take the following comment as a personal attack and only at face value and the true and correct definition of the word.

Your statement demonstrates ignorance.

From 1990 to present I have been a wood worker specializing in vernacular furniture and folk are by immigrants to the US and Canada roughly from 1850 to 1950. This would include, Hutterite, Mennonite, Swedish, Gustavian, French, Doukhobor, Russian, Ukrainian  etc as well as  Spanish Revival, Shaker, Mission/Arts and Crafts, Quebecois, as well as obscure pieces from unknown  unknown sources. My work is in over 20 countries in museums and private collections. I do the woodworking and the finish work right down to making my own paint.

To add, I have been making stringed musical instruments since 1964 to include guitars, mandolins, violins, and nyckelharpa.

Some folks "get it" and some don't.

Butt joints are all I need to know about a maker.  Next.

Some folks look at the top side, I look at the back.

I NEVER, EVER use Phillips head screws in anything other than crude carpentry ( American standard quality)
I don't use greasy kid stuff stain or sprayed finishes. My choice.

Currently I also do a bit of auto art... there is a reason I am backed up for the foreseeable future and now in 21 countries.. ad nauseum. Not a point of brag, but to establish that what I do is appreciated by a few who likewise understand craftsmanship.

That said I am a huge fan of Hohners. ( Mitered)

My latest venture , before I became incapacitated a few years back, was joining box frames with no visible joinery and no inside re enforcement blocks.  I temporarily gave it all up, sold my inventory to Mr La Fleur and am messing about once again.

Enough.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2016, 09:57:08 PM »

 ::) Absolutely!
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squeezy

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2016, 11:29:14 PM »

Well - at the moment you can count me in to the number of "barbarians" who doesn't give two hoots about exquisitely executed furniture finishes as far as squeezeboxes are concerned.  I don't for one minute pretend to understand the intricacies of different joint types, finishes and wood qualities.  As a professional musician who has to throw the instruments about on stage in a busy and boisterous environment I am actually scared of instruments that look like beautiful pieces of artwork because I know that if I play them in earnest, they will end up with my microphone attachments screwed in and the boxes will be dented and scratched in no time at all.

I haven't played my amazing Kay Albrecht box in any setting apart from some gentle acoustic gigs and practicing yet - for exactly this reason.

The box I end up playing again and again on stage is my Eric Martin 2 row 3 voice.  It's not because it's beautifully finished, it is not!  It has numerous faults in both it's design and it's construction meaning that I'm constantly doing running repairs on it, it looks chipped and damaged.  It's bass end reedblock design means the Binci reeds speak quite poorly under pressure no matter how you voice the reeds.  The buttons fall off.  But despite that all suggesting the box is a complete dog, it has a character and a power that no amount of finery can give.  It is a real melodeon player's melodeon.

The fact that it's so much fun to play comes from how it's designed for musicians and how the functional parts are put together, not how it looks or impresses craftsmen.

It does have mitred joints though  >:E
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 11:30:51 PM by squeezy »
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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2016, 11:35:34 PM »

And in a vain attempt to bring it back on topic, every Castagnari Max I've ever played has had a similar amazing playability to my Eric Martin, and I can't say that for all of the more traditionally made 1 row boxes I've tried.  I don't understand the problem people have with the air button and I particularly love the older models which were slightly smaller.
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Winston Smith

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2016, 12:06:02 AM »

Enough?

I'm really sorry to have brought you to a point of such annoyance that you feel that you want to close down the discussion.

However, although I cannot claim the level of intricate skill and patience which you obviously have, I have been making things work since the mid sixties, and am well aware of having pride in a job well done, which Theo mentions.
 
What I just "don't get" is why you denigrate a simple butted joint in favour of an equally simple mitred joint, when there is really nothing to choose between them in practical terms. Without some sort of reinforcement, neither are of much use, strength-wise. And whether one looks "nicer" or takes more skill or time than another is surely down to personal preference or judgement?

I wouldn't even dream of doubting your obvious skills and commitment to quality, I only wish that I had had the opportunity (and been able, of course) to do something to that level of perfection.

You tell us that you were "joining box frames with no visible joinery and no inside re enforcement blocks." so it's seems that you aren't even a real fan of mitred corners on melodeons, and are aware of a much better way of making the corners, even better (one assumes) than old fashioned dovetails.

Whilst I readily admit to a great deal of ignorance in many spheres, I don't think I'm a complete Philistine. I appreciate beauty wherever I find it, and can see the different quality of workmanship between my Hohner and my National Band, but I do lean towards the "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like" brigade!

I hope you keep on striving for perfection, but I don't believe that it is to be found in judging the quality of a melodeon by the simplicity of, what is actually, an adequate jointing method.

I really didn't intend to drag this out for so long, sorry.

 





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melodeon

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2016, 01:42:20 AM »

I have said nothing about "barbarians".. please do not imply something I have not said or thought.

Butt joints are done because they are easy.  Miters are much better.  There are other techniques I consider far superior in box construction.. but that's just my take..

It isn't perfection, it is simply much better functionally and aesthetically.
Miters are not equally simple.
Butt joints.. one board too long the other short. Clamp four of these puppies together and get out the belt sander.
Ever see a butt joint on any thing made in Japan.? They would never consider it. There is nothing cruder.

Miters are more difficult and take more time, that is why they aren't done. No excuse in my opinion.

Do they play or sound better.. interesting question. Consider:

If a craftsman takes the time to miter a joint, likely he will show the same skill in other areas.
If a "craftsman "  "butt joins" likely he will exhibit the same skill in other areas and that is my experience and the main reason I do not own butt jointed boxes. I have had my experiences with them. I can give you examples, but fear it would fall on deaf ears.

"You tell us that you were "joining box frames with no visible joinery and no inside re enforcement blocks." so it's seems that you aren't even a real fan of mitred corners on melodeons, and are aware of a much better way of making the corners, even better (one assumes) than old fashioned dovetails."

Once again you are making assumptions and judgements and implying something I have not said nor think.
"FAN" is not a word I use when making a choice of one method over another.  Butt joint never, miter when appropriate, another joint that is stronger and unseen... but takes more time and skill and offers something to the user though he may not even know it's there.. that would be my choice.  Dove tails and box joints are another step up from butt and miter, and when  set up... quite easy.. Hohner does it with the ERICA chassis.

"Adequate" is not in my personal vocabulary, excellence and distinction are, whether others appreciate it or not.

Would you pose the same statements, questions and attitude to Mr Briggs?
I believe he has an engineer's mind, there is always a better way. May or may not be to your liking but there is a reason why he has a waiting list and a price to match.


"Enough?

I'm really sorry to have brought you to a point of such annoyance that you feel that you want to close down the discussion."

Once again, again, please do not suggest or imply I said or thought anything like you have posted.
"Enough" was a statement directed toward me and no one else.
Perhaps rather than me assuming others were using intralinear inspection , I should have typed " I have said enough".

I really like Eric Martin boxes. IMNSHO  he makes a better "Cajun" box than I have seen from CAJUN builders with whom I am familiar.
Character and playability  of the highest order.

I keep my boxes in good order and dread dinging them but I am not precious about them. 

I am considering a new C#/D box.
One is made with the best design , materials and workmanship,   2 treble reeds, no bass stop for the thirds.
The other is "adequate" but has bells and whistles. Three treble reeds, three treble stops, two bass stops.
The  price is the same.
Can you guess which one I am likely to buy. ?

I always wonder why folks defend mediocrity as if it is a "red badge of courage".. I don't get it.


"What I just "don't get" is why you denigrate a simple butted joint..."
Denigration and simply stating the facts are not necessarily the same.
Consider why Marc Savoy made such a big deal out of defending butt joints by photographing himself standing on a butt jointed box.  Did that demonstrate superior sound and playability or defend mediocrity/adequacy.
For $2500 USD I want more than adequate.

"And whether one looks "nicer" or takes more skill or time than another is surely down to personal preference or judgement?"
Absolutely,  and for $2500 USD I want more than adequate.

Here is a thought from my dearly departed father who had much the same attitudes I have ( though we did not see each other from the time I was 4 until 18) and his observations on how "others" make it through life.

What you can't do with skill,
Do with charm
If that doesn't work, try B--- S---.




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triskel

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2016, 02:50:06 AM »

"Here's a "thoroughly modern" (62-year old) single row - with no thumb-loop, but complete with thumb groove, streamlined and all enclosed. And they really are a great box!"

4 reed no stopper ?
2 Reed?
Paolo Soprani ?

Made by Paolo Soprani (or maybe by Pancotti for Paolo Soprani, if Nils Nielsen is right about that white/black/white piping) for Italian Accordion Manufacturing Co. in Chicago, and one of three that turned up (still wrapped in Paolo Soprani packaging) in storage there in December 2014.

It packs a huge amount of punch out of only two reeds, but there's loads of acreage inside there for longer pallets and another reedblock, or three, to be installed...  :o


But very much a "modern" and "state-of-the-art" 10-key box when it was made!

" good Cajun maker"
Which, in my book, eliminates the top three butt jointers......  Miller, Martin and Savoy.
Try Jude Moreau or B. LaFleur.

I'd try them all if I was in a position to Jeff, but I'd judge them on playability and sound rather than on what sort of corners they use, whilst there does seem to be something of a Cajun tradition of using butt joints when the oldest and most prominent makers all seem to use them...



The "offending" joints

Likewise the cheap metal corners you object to have been a feature of melodeon construction going back to the appearance of that instrument in the 1870s, and thumbstraps (on both melodeons and English concertinas) go back to Cyrill Demian's first accordions in 1829.

But it's Marc Savoy's shop in Eunice that I was taken to (by mutual friends), not even looking to buy an accordion at the time  ::), and I'm exceedingly happy with the Acadian D I finished up getting - thanks to its superlative sound and playability, its traditional appearance, and it being tuned just the way I wanted. And I got it in less than three weeks because I wasn't fussy and quite happy to have it built in the only D body (which happened to be a walnut one) that was immediately available...  :D

Note:
Mr. Wesson properly miters the box corners.

Yes, and if I was in the market for another 4-stopper (it'd be a low G, with new Dix reeds if I was), and I didn't mind waiting (;)) I'd seriously consider one off Rees, though Olav Bergflodt would have to be another serious contender in my book (but you might take issue with his extensive use of CNC and laser cutting machinery?):


And, as with the Imaginaire... no wax...

The Acadian is lightly waxed, with screws, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that...


Triskel... Kindly expound on your preference for the Beltuna...
I have been interested but , alas, the two ( known to me) US dealers are to be avoided.
 
Do they have stand up , removeable, reed blocks or lay downs. ?
Any salient features that attract you...?
Other than the air button, are there other reasons you favor the Beltuna over the Castagnari. ?

Considering the Italians have been making one rows for quite some time, your statement about them is curious.
In what areas do you think they are lacking.

Are you in favor of lay down reeds  as opposed to stand ups?

I've only played one Beltuna, which I was told had "a mano" reeds (which is what the catalogue says they have), and was very impressed with it. I haven't seen inside one, though I understand the reedblocks are "Cajun style". (For that matter I never saw inside my Acadian until I took the photos today, seeing that I've never had the least bit of trouble with it, so no reason to open it up. (:))

The melodeon, "Cajun accordion", or "Deutsche Harmonika" (to give it its original name) is specificaly German in origin, and (apart from Beltuna) seems to be alien to Italian builders - who tend to make them more like an Italian organetto (and hence any issues with the width of the Castagnari's growl box, or the placement of its wind key - which are like those of an organetto).

I'm in favour of 4-stopper melodeons that sound like a melodeon should, and that is best achieved with the same sort of reedblock layout that was used in the old Globe, Sterling and Monarch models, and is copied by modern Cajun makers, with the two central banks of reeds upright and the outer ones flat.

Edited to correct link

triskel

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2016, 03:24:10 AM »

The box I end up playing again and again on stage is my Eric Martin 2 row 3 voice.  It's not because it's beautifully finished, it is not!  It has numerous faults in both it's design and it's construction meaning that I'm constantly doing running repairs on it, it looks chipped and damaged.  It's bass end reedblock design means the Binci reeds speak quite poorly under pressure no matter how you voice the reeds.  The buttons fall off.  But despite that all suggesting the box is a complete dog, it has a character and a power that no amount of finery can give.  It is a real melodeon player's melodeon.

The fact that it's so much fun to play comes from how it's designed for musicians and how the functional parts are put together, not how it looks or impresses craftsmen.

Lucky you! I love the sound of Katie Howson's "green 'un", and even more so since she very kindly let me "have a go on it" a couple of years ago. If I was looking for a D/G box it'd be my number one choice!!!  :D

Chris Ryall

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2016, 07:41:07 AM »

  I don't understand the problem people have with the air button

You will, when your thumb gets a little older ;)
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Steve C.

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2016, 01:26:01 PM »

El Jefe certainly can spice up a thread.
I wandered around the house yesterday surveying woodwork and was surprised at the mix of butt joints, dadoes, mitres, dowels, kregs, bridles, fingers, crosses, dovetails, etc. in furniture, instruments, cabinets, etc. from 100+ years old to nearly new.
Was surprised that there wasn't much correlation with age/quality/cost/etc.  Some nice CNC dovetail on imported (i.e. kinda cheap) cabinets.
Some butted and cross lapped on old, old oak cabinets.  Still nice and tight.
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mselic

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2016, 05:23:15 PM »

As a professional musician who has to throw the instruments about on stage in a busy and boisterous environment I am actually scared of instruments that look like beautiful pieces of artwork because I know that if I play them in earnest, they will end up with my microphone attachments screwed in and the boxes will be dented and scratched in no time at all.

I completely understand! I was worried about the very same thing when I first got my Tommy, and initially would think twice about bringing it outside and to campfire gatherings.  However, I decided fairly early on that an instrument is for playing, and there isn't much point in having one hidden away in safety for fear of it showing signs of wear.  I do take great care of it, of course, but I'm happy that I now haul it with me wherever I like and it gets played like any other instrument would, and I'm OK if it "earns" some wear and tear over the years.  Ever see Sharon Shannon's Tommy or Lilly? They both look fairly beat up...signs of well-loved instruments!

Having said that, I also understand an instrument as a work of art; there is something nice about holding and playing an instrument that is beautiful.  However, I agree with you in that aesthetics are far less important to me than how an instrument plays and feels in one's hands.

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triskel

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2016, 05:42:17 PM »

Ever see Sharon Shannon's Tommy or Lilly? They both look fairly beat up...signs of well-loved instruments!

Yes, at extremely close quarters - seeing that a friend of mine in Galway maintains them for her these days. Oh dear!  :o

Quote
... there is something nice about holding and playing an instrument that is beautiful.  However, I agree with you in that aesthetics are far less important to me than how an instrument plays and feels in one's hands.

There's something to be said for a Paolo Soprani that's safely sheathed in celluloid, or a Cajun accordion with "trashy" metal corner protectors...  ;)

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2016, 06:08:07 PM »

Mselic, when my brother would buy a new car he would, soon as he got it home, hit it in the rear quarter panel with a hammer, drivers side, so he wouldn't worry about getting that first dent....
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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2016, 07:30:22 PM »

Thanks Triskel et al.

Origin of Jefe.. My kids ( now 42 & 44) have called me Jefe since they were about 3-4 yrs old.

Bohemian because i n 1883 my GGF came from Salnau, Bohemia, Austria to the US ... now a part of the Czech Republic and now called Zelnav..  About 10 miles north of the Austrian border and 10 miles east of the German border.
I have , and play, his 2 + row 6 bass D/G box replete with blue and red leather bellows.

Absolutely nothing wrong with CNC.
The glamour and charm of making repeated complex cuts with a jewelers saw wears off quickly.
It leaves more time to spend on necessary handwork.

I agree on performance being paramount but if I have a choice between objects of the same function and one has butt joints and frayed holes in the "soundboard", and misaligned pallets and cookie cutter aluminum corners and mismatched misaligned marquetry and smeary glue   I'll opt for a tidy one made with care.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2016, 10:32:21 AM »

Absolutely!  There's no point buying a box which doesn't satisfy your needs no matter how beautifully made it is and how pretty it is.  But get one that plays and sounds just how you want and is pretty and you'll never want to part with it - even after it's got beat up and scarred....

A mate of mine has an unusually good Niko, but he's pretty heavy handed with it and it has witnessed too many rowdy sessions.  It is battered and bruised, but still plays superbly.  A couple of years back the LH casing started to work, lozenging as it was played!  He fitted angle brackets inside so it will withstand his treatment of it, probably adding half the weight of that end - but it's still the box I'd borrow if I needed to.

Rob
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mselic

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Re: questions about the Castagnari Max
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2016, 10:45:00 PM »

Can you take a tape measure or ruler to it and measure top to bottom, front to back. ?

The used, '99 Castagnari Melodeon (Max) arrived today.  The dimensions are as follows: top to bottom (excluding stops) is 9 7/8" (25cm) and front to back is 5.5" (14 cm).

It's a great box.  More info to follow.
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