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Author Topic: time signatures  (Read 10339 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2016, 12:10:34 PM »


It's quite likely that musicians in the 17th and 18th centuries were just as confused as us!


It's a pity my time machine is temporally out of power  :D

This post seems to go a long way towards answering my original question, thanks, Anahata, and to Jack, for saying much the same.

I suppose the only thing really significant is, is the music fit for purpose? Interesting to play and/or listen too and danceable to, if dance is what you're playing for.


Jack and Nick are describing different aspects of the same truth...


That's what I hoped.

Hemiola and sesquialtera are great words to know. Remind me of learning to play In The Hall Of The Mountain King, aged 12. It took me a long time to get my fingers around a melody written in one time (I think in 4/4) coupled with a  bass line in a different one (I think 6/8). I never did get my head around it properly. That's to say, I could play it, after a fashion, using muscle memory, if that exists, but I can't hear it clearly in my head.

Morphing tunes into different time signatures is a favourite during morris while the dancers are deciding what to do. Doesn't half wind them up sometimes , though >:E

"The 3/2 vs 6/4 confusion is particularly common...etc."
Looking quickly at the Playford scores,  you're right. 3/2 is used for hornpipes and 6/4 seems to be exclusively jigs. Scoring hornpipes in 6/4 seems to occur in later manuscripts.

I'll forget I ever came across the term "double-hornpipe"

Bye the bye, I seem to recall that a "gigue" (in various spellings) was a song and dance routine, performed by the fool at the end of an Elizabethan play.

Sometimes seems to me that 12/8 would be the best way to score  a lot of hornpipes.

Now to try that tune in 17/4.
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Theo

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2016, 01:21:46 PM »

Quote
Hemiola and sesquialtera are great words to know.

I entered a tune in a competition a couple of years ago and the judge commented favourably on my use of a hemiola.  I had to go an look up what it meant!
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playandteach

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2016, 01:49:25 PM »

  Are there any other rules/conventions like this, because this seems to be the OP's original point?
I read the OP's point to be:
If there is a change in the unit (i.e. the lower number representing quavers / crotchets etc.) but the top number stays the same, do we reflect that somehow in the way we play?
And the short answer is 'no'.
There are many deliberations about the difference between 2/4 and 4/4 (just using the lower number as 4 for convenience - it could be any duration), but there are so many pieces by great composers ignoring the niceties of that issue that I don't worry too much about exact obedience there. Long live the grey zone.
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Re: time signatures
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2016, 02:40:54 PM »



I entered a tune in a competition a couple of years ago and the judge commented favourably on my use of a hemiola.  I had to go an look up what it meant!

   I got one of those lifting a piano accordion.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2016, 04:03:46 PM »

Quote
If there is a change in the unit (i.e. the lower number representing quavers / crotchets etc.) but the top number stays the same, do we reflect that somehow in the way we play?
And the short answer is 'no'.

That's confused me even more, I fear!

6/4 vs 6/8?

Or 3/2 vs 3/4?


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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2016, 04:17:36 PM »

I read the OP's point to be:
If there is a change in the unit (i.e. the lower number representing quavers / crotchets etc.) but the top number stays the same, do we reflect that somehow in the way we play?
And the short answer is 'no'.

That's in the right direction, bearing Chris's observation in mind!  Yes that's a good part of it. And very firmly answered, assuming it is only applied to the situations where that's the case, if you follow me   ;D

Anahata has answered the other part of it, I think (with regard to hornpipes), by dismissing "double"  hornpipes and 6/4 hornpipes as misconceived.

Once I stopped looking for things that didn't exist I found plenty of good examples of things that did in the TOTM archive. Particularly the Rusty Gully and Playford threads.

Thanks.

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Chris Brimley

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2016, 05:35:31 PM »

There's an area which maybe we haven't covered yet, and that is that time signatures can assist in annotating scores where the intention is that the player should somehow 'swing' the music.  I don't have the knowledge to assess how often this applies, but it seems to me often that 'swinging' or 'syncopating' a tune involves splitting a straight beat of two into a dotted crochet (say) followed by a quaver, implying a (3+1) syncopated rhythm.  However, often this swing seems easier to represent and play as a split of the conceptual two beats into three, ie a crotchet and quaver (2+1).  And often the syncopation can vary subtly within the tune, to great effect, for example with some 'dotted' hornpipes, and the box is brilliant at it.  But the principle of splitting 2 beats into three (eg 12/8 instead of 4/4), seems to make some tunes much easier to annotate reasonably accurately.  Comments on this suggestion?
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playandteach

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2016, 12:26:03 AM »

There's an area which maybe we haven't covered yet, and that is that time signatures can assist in annotating scores where the intention is that the player should somehow 'swing' the music.  I don't have the knowledge to assess how often this applies, but it seems to me often that 'swinging' or 'syncopating' a tune involves splitting a straight beat of two into a dotted crochet (say) followed by a quaver, implying a (3+1) syncopated rhythm.  However, often this swing seems easier to represent and play as a split of the conceptual two beats into three, ie a crotchet and quaver (2+1).  And often the syncopation can vary subtly within the tune, to great effect, for example with some 'dotted' hornpipes, and the box is brilliant at it.  But the principle of splitting 2 beats into three (eg 12/8 instead of 4/4), seems to make some tunes much easier to annotate reasonably accurately.  Comments on this suggestion?
Again - excuse the black and white nature of the reply - no criticisms intended:
Swing and syncopation are different things.
Length of swing is dependent on era and style - some Jazz swing has evened almost back to straight, but with an articulation on the 'and' note. But still not syncopation.
Bearing in mind the personal and changing nature of swing, I think attempting to notate it is a mistake. I think most swing rhythms max out at triplet feel (your 2 notes into 3 - I'd be careful of talking about splitting 2 beats into 3 as a beat is a different concept) - I think 3+1 is too extreme for most styles to count as swing and would then be a legitimate cause for using dotted notation.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2016, 08:49:08 AM »

I'm grateful for your explanation, playandteach.

We seem to be coming to a position of saying that there are some things in music that are best not annotated.  This seems a little odd to me - if something to do with music is able to be described, surely it is an advantage somehow to be able to communicate it to the player?  OK, that sometimes risks fixing on one interpretation, but logically you could say the same about note lengths and pitches, say.

I'm interested at the moment in the idea of trying to play some 'Latin American dance' rhythms, where emphasis on beats and rhythms, within for example a 4/4 basic structure, seems to be an important thing to understand and practice.  Does anyone know of melodeonists who have played bossa nova, rumba, tango, etc, rhythms, as bandoneon players do?  It's going to be tricky co-ordinating LH and RH rhythms, but not necessarily impossible, I'd have thought.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 11:25:56 AM by Chris Brimley »
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dave t

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2016, 01:14:16 PM »

Chris, I think that you've answered your own question. There are many things to do with music that cannot be described using music notation and that’s fine. Notation is not meant to be definitive as music relies on the performer to bring it to life. Interesting that you bring up Latin American music as it serves as a great example of this; the rhythm is pushed and pulled in a way that would be impossible to notate. And I think that the same is true of Morris dance rhythms too.

Dave
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Chris Brimley

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2016, 01:36:29 PM »

Quote
Chris, I think that you've answered your own question.

I feel I have and I haven't.  You see, my point is that if a musician can understand and explain something, why can't he/she communicate it to others?

Take a bossa nova rhythm - I could say to you that in two bars of 8 quavers each, the most simple version of the LH rhythm I want to play is on beats 1, 4, 7, 11, & 14.  I could perhaps annotate the time signature as (3+3+2)/8 for the first bar, but I'll struggle with the second bar, because it starts with two quavers of silence, so that wouldn't work - the idea that each beat is on the first note of a bar isn't always true.
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dave t

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2016, 01:59:49 PM »

To answer your first question, if a musician wants to explain something to someone else then the best way to do that might be to play it rather than write it down.

In your bossa nova example, you're complicating things too much. The rhythm that you describe is usually written using two bars of 4/4. Although the rhythm cuts across the beat the underlying 4/4 pulse is still there. You don't need a new time signature for each time that the emphasis of the rhythm changes.
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dave t

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2016, 02:02:47 PM »

The rhythm that you describe is usually written using two bars of 4/4.

Or one bar.
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dave t

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2016, 02:09:45 PM »

For example:

X:0
T:Bossa
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:C
V:1
B3B z2 B2 | z2 B2 z B3||


X:0
T:Bossa
M:4/4
L:1/16
K:C
V:1
B3B z2 B2 z2 B2 z B3 ||
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Anahata

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2016, 03:26:32 PM »

Take a bossa nova rhythm - I could say to you that in two bars of 8 quavers each, the most simple version of the LH rhythm I want to play is on beats 1, 4, 7, 11, & 14.  I could perhaps annotate the time signature as (3+3+2)/8 for the first bar, but I'll struggle with the second bar, because it starts with two quavers of silence, so that wouldn't work - the idea that each beat is on the first note of a bar isn't always true.
What's wrong with convential musical notation as used by Wikipedia to describe the Bossa Nova? (and they use the same kind of notation for every dance rhythm article I've seen).
The time signature is not the place to put this information - when you write 3/4 the player is supposed to know by some other means whether it's a minuet, waltz, mazurka, sarabande, polska, polonaise or something else, and mostly that's inherent in the way the melody is constructed, plus you might get a hint from the title or context.

P.S. Dave T has, I think, said the same thing in ABC notation.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2016, 03:35:38 PM »

One tune that's an utter pig to notate is "The Sweetness of Mary".  I think it's a 12/8 march (like a 4/4 march but with the beats subdivided into triplets, which is no sort of established form), but some people try to make it a strathspey and use dotted notation, which anybody who knows how to play strathspeys will then exaggerate into something downright bizarre.

This is the best abc I have for the tune Jack. In 4/4 it works quite well as written just don't describe it as a strathspey!

X:82
T:Sweetness Of Mary, The
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
K:Gmaj
(3DGA|B2 (3BAG E2 (3EGA|B<d c<e d2 (3def|g>fe>d d>cB>c|d<g B<G A2 (3AGA|
B2 (3BAG E2 (3EGA|B<d c<e d2 (3def|g>fe>d d>cB>c|d<g B<A G2:|
g>a|b>dg<b a>df<a|g>fe<g d2 c<B|e>dc<e d>cB>c|d<g B<G A2 g>a|
b>dg<b a>df<a|g>fe<g d2 c<B|e>Gc<e d>cB>c|d<g B<A G2:|

Here played quite delightfully by our own Martin Ellison.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2016, 05:37:45 PM »

Quote
You don't need a new time signature for each time that the emphasis of the rhythm changes.

Erm, hence my original suggestion that it might be helpful to have a way of describing rhythm in stave notated music, as well as time signatures.  Others disagreed at the time, saying the time signature could cover it, but it seems opinions have shifted a bit since then.  I accept that sometimes it's not necessary, because the rhythm is adequately conveyed by the melody itself.

Quote
What's wrong with convential musical notation as used by Wikipedia to describe the Bossa Nova?


Sure, you can write out another stave just to do it, but that seems as cumbersome as trying to do the same thing to show the beat intended on say a 6/8 piece (ie on quavers 1 and 4, or maybe 1,3,4, and 6, depending on how it's to be emphasised).

The Sweetness of Mary tune you've abc'ed Pete is a very interesting example of beat interpretation, I feel, and as you say.  I see Martin Ellison and Anahata have both posted excellently played versions on youtube.  To my ears, they seem subtly different - Martin has gone for a 'tripleted' rhythm, perhaps best annotated in 12/8, whereas Anahata's seems to have more of a 'dotted' feel throughout.   Your ABC version seems to have a combination of the two - sometimes tripleted, sometimes dotted - a different interpretation.  All three are delightful tunes.



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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2016, 07:23:00 PM »

I'm grateful for your explanation, playandteach.

if something to do with music is able to be described, surely it is an advantage somehow to be able to communicate it to the player?

Just a thought.
Time signature gives  metre, but not  rhythm.
Rhythm is created by emphasis
We already have ways of notating emphasis. Can't dynamic and agogic accents be used to map rhythm (edit, although I don't know if agogic accents have accepted symbols, or are just implied by everything else)?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 07:35:36 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Pete Dunk

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2016, 07:41:18 PM »

I'd forgotten about Anahata's excellent version, thanks for reminding me Chris. Yes all three are lovely versions of the same tune and the abc might have sounded a little more like Martin's version if some of the dotted pairs were changed to a cut note (acciacatura) preceeding a quaver, and a little more like Anahata's if the triplets were replaced with dotted pairs. It's all a matter of interpretation really and that's what blurs the edges between tunes with the same (and interchangable) time signatures.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: time signatures
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2016, 07:58:01 PM »

Can't dynamic and agogic accents be used to map rhythm (edit, although I don't know if agogic accents have accepted symbols, or are just implied by everything else)?

My my we're moving well into music theory now aren't we? Unless I misunderstood things (many moons ago now!) an agogic accent is created by putting a longer note into a series of notes of equal length, thus drawing attention to it by breaking the flow, like putting a long stride into a series of hops. I'm open to being shot down in flames on this one. :D  :|glug
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