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[Jacob Steel]

I'm wondering about buying a new 2 1/2 row melodeon for use as a general purpose morris/ceilidh/session box (I don't play seriously enough to justify different boxes for different purposes). I've played a number of 3-voice boxes at stalls at festivals and liked the sound. Can anyone give me any advise on the relative merits of different 2 1/2 row, three voice boxes (things like the Alex 3, Pasourelle 3, Neuilly, Mori, Romene, etc)?

I really liked the sound of the Serenelli 233, but as far as I could see, the only 2 1/2 row 3 voice the do is the 273, which is 21+4, and I think I want at least 5 accidental buttons.

Are there any boxes like this that you'd particularly recommend? Any that you've had bad experiences with? Anything I should think about when buying that may not be obvious?

[melodeon]

I have seen the 273 in a 10/9/8 as is pictured on the website..
There is also the Saltarelle version.

I have owned 2 Serenellini  233 models... one in D/G and the other in C#/D  both excellent.

I have owned 2 Morys.. Not what I would consider a Morris box.. which I perceive to be as light, fast and noisy/brash.
One of the Morys was a very poorly crafted unit, the other a miracle of modern craftsmanship..

[Jack Humphreys]

As always,  I'd advise getting six buttons on the half row, that means you can have D and E reversals in both octaves (DG-speak), which I find very useful.   But A. Cutting and C. Brotto seem to cope with only five on their Morys. 

Most makers only put five. Bernard Loffet has six on the half row in one of his Pro range, ( which I've been using for my jackdiatonique youtubes.)  Pariselle tends to put seven, I think, but that's  more expensive and longer wait.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

I know there are a number of us here, myself included, that would suggest jumping up to a full 3 row box. It really opens up the flexibility on the right hand for accidentals and reversals. However, 3 voice 3 row boxes do start to get heavy and less suited for heavy push/pull work, though I can't imagine the addition of 3 or 4 more reeds and mechanics adding too much to the total weight of a box over a 2.6.

Baron

[Theo]

For Morris you really can't beat a two row.

What you do with an extra part ir full row really depends what you want to play. 

[Graham Spencer]

Personally I think for morris and ceilidh work you need a box that's light in weight, sturdily built and reliable - not to mention easily repairable if things do go wrong. I'm not sure it needs to be any more complex than a 2-row - I have a Pastourelle 21+4, and I haven't yet come across any morris, ceilidh or session tunes that it can't cope with, and indeed 98% of them are doable on, for instance, a Pokerwork or an Erica, though admittedly it's more of a stretch to reach the accidental buttons. I tend to use a Hohner 2915 (ie same as a "Pokerwork" but without the Goldbrand finish) for morris playing. Another thing with a morris box, in particular, is that you have to accept that it will get some rough treatment, and if you don't mind your £2000 box having beer spilt on it or being kicked over into a muddy puddle that's fine. Please don't think I'm saying there isn't a place for "posh" boxes with all kinds of extra buttons and reversals - there is, but my own feeling is that that place isn't out on a morris tour, in a lively and busy ceilidh band, or in a crowded pub session.  Just my thoughts - others may (and will) disagree.......

Graham

Just another thought - if I were looking for a 3-voice box for morris, I'd probably look at a Dino Baffetti Black Pearl III

[squeezy]

I really agree with Theo.  My perfect box (which I would also class as needing to be a good morris box that you can throw around a bit) would be a 3 voice LMM D/G 2.5 row with at least 5 buttons on the half row.  I have tried out probably every type of modern made boxes it's possible to get my hands on (Mory, Connemara III, Serenellini models, Neiully,  Sandpipers, Loffets) ... and I've come to the conclusion that it is a futile bit of research.

The reason I say that is that the weight/size needed to make a good 2.5 row 3 voice box is just over the tipping point of that needed to make it punchy for push-pull work (unless you possess the superhuman muscle strength of someone like Saul Rose who seems to manage it on a hefty Handry 18 bass).  A good lightweight 2.5 row 2 voice seems to be fine for throwing about, as does a good small 2 row 3 voice ... but thereafter it becomes a bit unmanageable.

The closest I have tried (and indeed possess) is a Hohner Club model 7 'ladies model' ... which is a rare thing made in the 1930s ... and only in C/F or Bb/Eb so a D/G would need to be a custom renovation.  It's a full 3 voice 2.5 row (7 accidental buttons) and it was only made with 8 basses (my 12 bass one is again a custom job).  It's a bit smaller than a Pokerwork and it seems to be one of the very top end 1930s Hohners ... but while it's easy to chuck about, the Hohner reeds are not as responsive as a set of good modern A mano reeds.  One of these set up in D/G using good Italian reeds like Bincis and converted to 12 basses would be an unbelievable beast.

[benammiswift]

I think that it totally depends on what you decide with sound and response and what you feel you are able to utilize when it comes to extra buttons, when I bought my Handry 18 I was told by many people that it was to big, I wouldn't handle/ need all the buttons and that I would sell it within a month. A year down the line I have bought another Handry because I love it so much so go with what you decide not what people think is best for you, at the end of the day you are you and therefore you know what suits. Go with what you think you like. You could try some of the custom luthiers like Kay Albrecht and Emmanuel Pariselle who don't have standard models and just make what you ask them if you do want a 2.5 row with more than 5 buttons. But, if you do want more than 5 buttons it may be worth going straight for a 3 row.

The other thing is that I use both of my Handrys for morris and don't find them a problem, I don't consider myself to have superhuman strength like Saul but maybe I'm stronger than I think, I dont know haha but I can easily make my Handry punch as much and as loud as any Dino Baffetti Binci you can throw at it so it's well within the realms of reality to have a punchy box that's bigger than a two row.

What it all boils down to is try, think, try again (as many times as needed) then buy and you should find a box that will suit you. Converted old hohners done by the likes on Theo and Mike Rowbotham are great but not my cup of tea and the only modern box that grabbed me was the Handry (I tried every three row 3 voice box I could get my hands on Casta,Saltarelle,Van Der Aa,Serafini). If you try enough melodeons one should eventually grab you and give the "I want that box" obsession that let's you know you've found the one for you.

Hope this helps in some way.

Benammi

[oggiesnr]

I have a Theo converted Club.  Four buttons on the helper row, fourth button start, two voice, it is awesome.  For carrying around and playing standing it is now my "go to" box.

I also have a Loffet 2.6 three voice.  Totally different beastie.  It's my box for sitting down and playing in polite company and for open mikes where I'm the alternative to SGWAGs.  Lots of options BUT it is heavy.

Weight is important (especially as you get older) as is the context you'll use it in.  If I was after a straight two row morris box then I'd just get a Dino Black Pearl II, lots of grunt on the treble side and basses that mean it (why I don't like Castas).  If you must have a two and a bit then I'd talk to Theo (other fettlers are available) and get an old Hohner converted.  In reality I don't thing the extra effort to power a low set of reeds is worth it for a morris box but that is just my opinion.

Steve

[squeezy]

You are of course right Benammi that if you get the right box in your hands then you will know ... but it's rare that most of us ever do - so we have to go on a load of advice.  It depends on the stage you are in your playing too ... owners of a large heavy box will normally change their style of playing to reduce extended push-pull passages and extremes of dynamics that are normally considered the 'morris style' - and that happens whether it is a conscious or a sub-conscious decision!

Just as most dog owners end up looking like their dogs (do they?) - most box players end up sounding like their boxes!

PS - I don't think you have heard this Club model 7 ... it is the most Castagnari sounding Hohner I've ever played!

[benammiswift]

Good idea by Steve to have different boxes for different jobs, that's the ideal world scenario haha.

I'll look forward to hearing the Club at some point John, sounds like a nice beastie.

With regards to Steve about the black pearl ii it may be worth looking through a Dino Baffetti catalogue to see if they have anything to tickle your fancy. whilst I wholeheartedly disagree with Steve about it Casta bass, my Handry has the most ferocious bass I've ever heard on a box, Dino Baffettis are very good and they have loads of models so you may find one that has the right number of buttons and voices.

[malcolmbebb]

Horses for courses...

If I was after a straight two row morris box then I'd just get a Dino Black Pearl II, lots of grunt on the treble side and basses that mean it (why I don't like Castas).
Steve

What he said... Although I did have my treble tuned for a bit more tremolo. The basses are very well received by other players (the sound, not my skill with them) and stand out well.
Very happy with the BPII (standard reeds) for Morris. And I took the view, as expressed by others, that it's a Morris box so it doesn't get wrapped in cotton wool.
As for Castas, I only know Lilly and Giordy basses but I don't like them. Too squeaky. Ok, the Giordy's got an excuse 'cos it's only little...

[Steve_freereeder]

As for Castas, I only know Lilly and Giordy basses but I don't like them. Too squeaky. Ok, the Giordy's got an excuse 'cos it's only little...

Malcolm - the basses in a Castagnari Lily and Giordy are not representative of the maker's instruments as a whole. These small instruments do indeed have bass/chord reeds in relatively high voicing. I'm not sure about a Giordy - it may even have a single reed bass. The Lily has two bass reeds mostly pitched in octaves 3 and 4 and the high reed is also shared with the tonic in the chord, so it's no wonder they can sound a bit thin and strident. The Tommy basses have a slightly lower bass voicing, generally two octaves apart so octaves 2 and 4 in this case. However the higher bass reed still is shared with the chord tonic and overall there is that rather strident sound.

However as soon as you move on to the standard size instruments, e.g. the Sander, Hascy, Mory, Handry, etc., the basses have three reeds per note in octaves 2, 3 and 4, and the chords also have three independent reeds; there is no reed sharing. The sound of the basses and chords in these instruments is as beefy as you could wish for. You have only to listen to say, Andy Cutting's or Saul Rose's playing to hear this.

[Rob2Hook]

As for Castas, I only know Lilly and Giordy basses but I don't like them. Too squeaky. Ok, the Giordy's got an excuse 'cos it's only little...

The Lilly's not exactly full-sized either - both have limited bass characteristics!  My Trilly was loud - I got complaints!  It also had a great bass so that it contributed a really rounded sound what with the full bass and the LMM treble side.  It's no good boasting that a particular box can be heard over another type as most have distinctive sounds and can be distinguished from each other in an ensemble.  The BPII is a super little box for morris (and ceilidh) but is slightly limited by choking of the basses when pushed hard.  The Oakwood variations are louder still (painfully so in certain hands).  A band full of Pokerworks carries well, again a rounded sound and a fairly soft melody sound due largely to the tremolo.

Back to the OP's question, the size and weight of a 2 1/2 row is OK for some, but you have to be tall and strong or stocky and strong!  They make super boxes for ceilidh and session playing, but weight apart, the larger cross section of the bellows means it requires unreasonable strength to produce the air pressure for loud, punchy playing.  With that in mind, the smaller the better, although that may mean less powerful basses - it's all a compromise.

Rob.

[Lester]

I'm not sure about a Giordy - it may even have a single reed bass.

The Giordy has single bass reed and only the third and fifth in the chords.

[Julian S]

Important point to remember. It can take quite a bit of playing to appreciate the pluses and minuses of a new box. I had a Beltuna Alex 3 - 2  1/2 row, 3 voice - great sound - but as I found after a couple of months playing just too heavy for me - resulting in sore wrists and back. An expensive mistake - so part exchanged for a Dony.
I've now got a Dino straight two row 3 voice for outdoors morris stuff so I can keep my wonderful old Pastourelle 2 for best all round, Giordy for random sessions, and the Dony for variety. For me, the accidentals/reversals are more important than the extra voice- weight/balance is critical. But it all depends on personal priority and budget !

[IanD]

I all depends how push-pull you play, how you hold the box, how many straps you use and so on. I've got a Dony and I find it heavy even for band work, and for morris it would kill me -- anyone who's seen me play would understand why an Oakwood or DBB works for me ;-)

[John MacKenzie (Cugiok)]

I have an old Club IV, declubbed, and it has seven accidentals. Nice box, sweet sound. May be a bit too heavy for what you want though.though.


Sir John

[Theo]

As always,  I'd advise getting six buttons on the half row, that means you can have D and E reversals in both octaves (DG-speak), which I find very useful.   But A. Cutting and C. Brotto seem to cope with only five on their Morys. 

Most makers only put five. Bernard Loffet has six on the half row in one of his Pro range, ( which I've been using for my jackdiatonique youtubes.)  Pariselle tends to put seven, I think, but that's  more expensive and longer wait.

The standard model built on Emmanuel Pariselle's courses has 10/9/6 buttons.   No waiting on this one.