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Author Topic: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl  (Read 6296 times)

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Anahata

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2016, 08:29:39 AM »

your (Double Dutch to me) statement "I usually back off the clip mic, and tweak the pans to make the stereo narrower." surely gives the impression that what we are listening to isn't quite real any more.

If I'm reading that correctly, the implication is that if he hadn't done that and you listened on a stereo system (like most computer speakers), you would have heard all the bass end of the box out of the right speaker and unnaturally loud, and all of the treble side out of the left speaker. That wouldn't sound very natural, so mixing them a bit is perfectly legitimate.

But we digress, and I agree with your first point that it's a nice performance anyway, whatever the technicalities.
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2016, 10:31:18 AM »

yes, spot on Anahata, that's what I meant - yours is a much better explanation than my shorthand.

If anyone is interested, I'll try and refute Edward's claim that music recording is generally unreal, but that would probably be better on a different thread, and when I have time. Right now I have to dash to set up the P.A. for a village fete and dog show. Yes I am working as both a professional sound engineer and musician, my remuneration will be a pint of beer (I hope).
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playandteach

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2016, 10:43:03 AM »

Nevertheless, your (Double Dutch to me) statement "I usually back off the clip mic, and tweak the pans to make the stereo narrower." surely gives the impression that what we are listening to isn't quite real any more.
It's not only you, and I'm certainly not having a dig at you, but I've noticed one or two more posters mentioning other ways that recordings are altered. It's something we all expect from professional recording artists, but I just wonder if it has a place amongst friendly forum member players, most of whom seem to be amateurs?
For me there are two different things here - for me 1 is fine, and 1 is taste-subjective.
The first one is that backing off the mic and making the stereo field narrower is not 'enhancing' the sound, it is just getting the recording equipment to work. If you were to put a mic in your mouth you'd get a distorted recording that is neither pleasant nor accurate. Having the mic too close to the sound source on a melodeon does the same thing so backing it off is just using the equipment effectively. When we listen to a box live we hear the bass side and treble side coming from the same place. When we record it on 2 separate mics it can seem as if they are on different sides of the stage - so again this is just getting the equipment to work properly.

The second point is a player's desire to get the recording to sound pleasant. I try to achieve that by recording in a resonant room and not editing the sound (by the way I have never successfully improved the sound by editing anyway). My pet hate is post recording reverb - it is chocolate box soft-focus for my taste.

I do edit my soundcloud recordings of the tunes I'm writing to cut and paste separate recordings to eliminate mistakes, as I am trying to demo the tune, not the playing. I don't edit the youtube ones, other than to use a separate mic to the video cameras. I don't bother for the piano versions, which I think people on this forum just accept as - "it's a piano" - but for the melodeon ones where I think people want to hear the sound clearly.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 10:55:01 AM by playandteach »
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Winston Smith

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2016, 12:49:22 PM »

It's all technical, and quite beyond a old fart like me. But, as Steve implies, this isn't the thread for anyone to try to teach this old dog some of these new tricks. Thanks for the explanations, anyway; I am a bit enlightened, honestly!
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2016, 03:21:41 PM »

Nevertheless, your (Double Dutch to me) statement "I usually back off the clip mic, and tweak the pans to make the stereo narrower." surely gives the impression that what we are listening to isn't quite real any more.

I don't see that altering the volume of one mic relative to another (especially when the type and characteristics of mics used are very different) as altering the sound in any way, simply restoring the balance of the accoustic sound that was thrown out of kilter by the recording process and the equipment used. Keeping the stereo pans tight is similarly restoring the natural sound, any wider and you would be listening to an accordion with five foot wide bellows!

Quote
It's not only you, and I'm certainly not having a dig at you, but I've noticed one or two more posters mentioning other ways that recordings are altered. It's something we all expect from professional recording artists, but I just wonder if it has a place amongst friendly forum member players, most of whom seem to be amateurs?

There are a lot of amateur musicians who are also amateur (and in some cases professional) recording engineers and they are bound to make the best audio track that they can. I don't see that as 'cheating' at all. On the rare occassions that I record myself these days I either use a digital camera for video or a Zoom H4 stereo recorder for straight audio recording and apart from topping and tailing the file to keep things tidy no other processing goes on. I do have a digital 8 track recorder with built in multi-effects though and have been know to edit audio heavily, it's fun and all part of my amateur music hobby. So yes, I think a bit of audio editing has a place amongst friends on a music forum.  ;D
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Winston Smith

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2016, 03:53:21 PM »

"I don't see that altering the volume of one mic relative to another (especially when the type and characteristics of mics used are very different) as altering the sound in any way, simply restoring the balance of the accoustic sound that was thrown out of kilter by the recording process and the equipment used. Keeping the stereo pans tight is similarly restoring the natural sound, any wider and you would be listening to an accordion with five foot wide bellows!"

Now that some of the jargon is becoming a bit more clear, I am beginning to understand what you're all on about. (And wishing I'd kept my trap shut in the first place!) But "stereo pans"? If you asked me about the liner height and topping the pistons on a Ricardo engine, I'd know exactly what you're referring to, but I'm lost with this jargon so I'll bow out, with the relevant apologies to one and all.
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2016, 04:21:41 PM »

Stereo pans are cooking two fried eggs in different saucepans on both sides if the cooker  8)
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Winston Smith

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2016, 04:25:43 PM »

Aaaaah, the voice of reason!
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Pete Dunk

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2016, 11:52:09 PM »

Now that some of the jargon is becoming a bit more clear, I am beginning to understand what you're all on about. (And wishing I'd kept my trap shut in the first place!) But "stereo pans"? If you asked me about the liner height and topping the pistons on a Ricardo engine, I'd know exactly what you're referring to, but I'm lost with this jargon so I'll bow out, with the relevant apologies to one and all.

Well I didn't mean to put you off and the 'jargon' is really old! Pan is short for panorama, movie makers talk for sweeping a camera from hard left to hard right or vice-versa. If I recorded you playing a tune with a single mic straight on from the front that would be a monophonic recording from the audience perspective and if the bass overpowered the treble so be it. If I were to use two highly directional mics to record either end of your melodeon onto seperate tracks simultaneously I then have full control over the two ends of the instrument when it comes to mixing the track. You as a player have the bass end on your left and the treble on your right. The audience hear your bass on the right and the treble end on the left. On the mixing desk I can 'pan' any track to left or right and most recordings play back from the perspective of the audience. A melodeon doesn't have a massive stereo spread so treble slightly left and bass slightly right gives you the feeling of being in the audience.

No need to bow out of the conversation, and no criticism of you comments was intended, just a gentle nudge in one direction or another!  ;)
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2016, 11:54:10 PM »

Oh and citing NCB as the voice of reason is rather like putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum!  >:E
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2016, 12:19:04 AM »

"I then have full control over the two ends of the instrument"

Haha, that's more than I ever have, especially the left hand! Thank you, I now consider myself "nudged".
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Nick Collis Bird

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2016, 07:22:37 AM »

Oh and citing NCB as the voice of reason is rather like putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum!  >:E

 ::) ;D
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Clive Williams

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2016, 12:27:57 AM »

Here we go folks; 48 bar version played (fairly) straight on the Preciosa in Bb/Eb....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2-3gdTTyV4

Cheers,

Clive

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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2016, 09:54:21 AM »

After many, many attempt to record this, here it is. Once through only, as I was getting it wrong so often it was a miracle that I finally managed to get a version that was reasonably OK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFFuyK2SO7E
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2016, 11:41:45 AM »

After many, many attempt to record this, here it is. Once through only, as I was getting it wrong so often it was a miracle that I finally managed to get a version that was reasonably OK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFFuyK2SO7E
Very nice. You kept the pace well, which is not always easy to do. Good, light touch!
Mike
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2016, 01:21:47 PM »

Here we go folks; 48 bar version played (fairly) straight on the Preciosa in Bb/Eb....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2-3gdTTyV4

Cheers,

Clive

Interesting - I recognise that C part as the B part to another tune, but can't for  the life of me remember what it is. I'm sure I've heard it played for NW Morris, though.

Graham
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2016, 02:22:50 PM »

Trouble with NW is that there are often irregular length measures, so a bit of one tune gets grafted into another to make up the difference...

Rob.
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2016, 03:50:08 PM »

That's true; but something in what passes for my brain instantly recognised the 8 bars in question from some other context. A long trawl through a dozen or so tune-books, I suppose...... ::)

Graham
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2016, 04:13:10 PM »

After many, many attempt to record this, here it is. Once through only, as I was getting it wrong so often it was a miracle that I finally managed to get a version that was reasonably OK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFFuyK2SO7E

It is much harder to play a tune while recording it than when just playing it for pleasure. Even experienced players sometimes have this factor creep in resulting in recording 2, 3 etc etc.

I thought it sounded fine and would just suggest that if you bring the bellows in to about half what you were using you would get better control of the ins and outs.

george
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Re: Tune of the Month for August 2016: Oyster Girl
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2016, 04:36:35 PM »

That's true; but something in what passes for my brain instantly recognised the 8 bars in question from some other context. A long trawl through a dozen or so tune-books, I suppose...... ::)

Graham

How's about The Muckin' O' Geordie's Byre, reasonably similar

X: 1
T:107. The Muckin' O' Geordie's Byre
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:D
B|"D"ABA AFA|d2ef2a|"G"g2ef2d|"A"e2d Bcd|
"D"ABA AFA|d2ef2g|afd "A"efe|"D"d3d2:|
|:e1/2f1/2|"G"g2g gag|"D"f2f faf|"Em"e2e ede|fed BdB|
"D"ABA AFA|d2ef2g|afd "A"efe|"D"d3d2:|
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