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[Martin P]

The Border side I now play with is lead by rather esoteric fiddle player who delights in finding obscure tunes to dance to. So, I'm now expected to play tunes in Am and D Dorian. I can do this on my 2 1/2 row DG box, especially has I have now had low A on D row changed to C, but fingering is tricky and of course I need to play D chords without the third. So the dilemma is, am I better to master playing these tunes on my DG or buy a CF box but then have to learn different fingering with sight reading back to front in terms of notes on staves or spaces?

[Jack Campin]

Learning the CF sounds the best option - if the fiddler is willing to stay in those keys.  You don't want to lug two boxes around.

Otherwise get the fiddler to transpose up a tone.

[Theo]

CF also is ok in G, with same fingering as A on a DG.

[Chris Ryall]

Playing any major diatonic box as minor key of one of its main rows is always frustrating and frankly quite thin music. You end up playing a lot of tonic+5th chords and there is very little musicality in that?

So it's either negotiate with the fiddler, lug another box around, or migrate to a 3 or 2½ row instrument - playing across rows so very different. I can chug away nicely in Dm on my accs/D/G. It loves Bb thougn - major, minor, blues, whatever! Yes, can get at Gm tune from there (relative minor) but the chord was 'thin' until I got a LM voiced box

Gm and Dm are lovely keys, beautiful, and worth the effort, but it ain't trivial. 

[george garside]

?48 ( 12x4) bass BCC# with stradella
george

[Steve_freereeder]

Playing any major diatonic box as minor key of one of its main rows is always frustrating and frankly quite thin music. You end up playing a lot of tonic+5th chords and there is very little musicality in that?

Oh Chris - I think you exaggerate rather. There are many Em tunes which sound great on a D/G box and the easily available chording of Em, B major, Bm7, Am7, C and G gives the potential for quite full and interesting harmonies.  For example, I don't think many people would describe Andy Cutting's playing as 'frankly quite thin music' (well, I wouldn't anyway).

[playandteach]

Playing any major diatonic box as minor key of one of its main rows is always frustrating and frankly quite thin music. You end up playing a lot of tonic+5th chords and there is very little musicality in that?

Oh Chris - I think you exaggerate rather. There are many Em tunes which sound great on a D/G box and the easily available chording of Em, B major, Bm7, Am7, C and G gives the potential for quite full and interesting harmonies.  For example, I don't think many people would describe Andy Cutting's playing as 'frankly quite thin music' (well, I wouldn't anyway).

I can't help but think Chris means something different here. If Chris is saying that the relative minor of the inner row is thin, Delicq becomes Flat Stanley.?!

[Steve_freereeder]

Playing any major diatonic box as minor key of one of its main rows is always frustrating and frankly quite thin music. You end up playing a lot of tonic+5th chords and there is very little musicality in that?

Oh Chris - I think you exaggerate rather. There are many Em tunes which sound great on a D/G box and the easily available chording of Em, B major, Bm7, Am7, C and G gives the potential for quite full and interesting harmonies.  For example, I don't think many people would describe Andy Cutting's playing as 'frankly quite thin music' (well, I wouldn't anyway).

I can't help but think Chris means something different here. If Chris is saying that the relative minor of the inner row is thin, Delicq becomes Flat Stanley.?!

Ah - I see your point Pete.
It's the difference between the relative minors of the major key rows, versus the 'home' (for want of a better word) minors of the major key rows.

So on a D/G box, the relative minor of the D-row is Bm and the relative minor of the G-row is Em.
However, the 'home' minor keys are Em on the D-row and Am on the G-row. There's a lot of difference! I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that Chris was writing about the 'home' minor keys, which work very well indeed. Chris - can you clarify please? 

[Chris Brimley]

I must say I thought Chris was just referring to playing Dm and Gm on a D/G major key box, and I have to say I agree with his 'thin' description.  I also find that even with quite a lot of accidentals as well, these keys do not really fall under the fingers for me - they're possible, and sometimes very effective, but if I were to try to learn a whole tune in Dm I find it's often so much easier to transpose to Em (and with my Roland, tune it down a tone to fit if needed).

[boxer]

I agree with George Garside, sort of.  Get a B/C with 12 John Williams bass.  All reasonable keys accessible on one box.

[Martin P]

As always, fascinating replies. My fiddle playing leader is obsessed with "bowing technique" and apparently this is better in Dm or Am, so he strongly prefers not to change key. I shall perservere on D/G box. Actually a very good exercise in using accidentals on half row and top buttons. Gets one out of GD rut. Also some of the tunes have odd rhythms, so timing on basses is interesting. Lots of bars where first two notes are semi-quaver then dotted quaver etc. 

[smiley]

Taking up the challenge to play in unusual keys for the 2-row D/G box (with accidentals) can lead you into interesting musical avenues.   Playing along with a strong fiddler makes it easier to skirt around the most problematic notes in a Dm tune and still keep the flow going, but I mostly leave the basses out or just tap them. Fiddlers often appreciate a box player giving the basses a rest and following their bowing rhythm instead!
In a recent session with fiddlers I discovered Jump at the Sun is playable in Dm on a D/G box and even Macarthur Road in E major is do-able.

[Stiamh]

My fiddle playing leader is obsessed with "bowing technique" and apparently this is better in Dm or Am, so he strongly prefers not to change key.

On first reading I was tempted to answer that (assuming the message has been relayed correctly) your fiddler is either being disingenuous or isn't much of a fiddler.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying to imagine what the bit about bowing might mean, the most plausible explanation is that playing minor tunes in Dm and Am allows for much more use of open strings on important notes, or as drones, so the fiddle will resonate more and hence sound better. And some tunes do work better in some keys, that's my experience. Dm is generally a moodier, darker sort of key than Em to my ears, on fiddle anyway. But this isn't really a question of bowing technique as such.

The other possible explanation (assuming disingenuousness) is that he has had bad experience of playing in melodeon-friendly minor keys   

[Anahata]

the most plausible explanation is that playing minor tunes in Dm and Am allows for much more use of open strings on important notes, or as drones, so the fiddle will resonate more and hence sound better.
...
But this isn't really a question of bowing technique as such.

Agreed on both points.
Actually if his bowing technique was really good, he wouldn't care what key it was in.

Unfortunately, what the fiddle gains by the power of open strings, the melodeon loses in punch and rhythm by having to cross rows, reach for accidentals and leave out or compromise on chords. The whole point about melodeons played in a key that suits them is that they can lift the dancers better than a CBA or a PA. In a less melodeon-friendly key, a clever player can get the notes, but it's likely to have less "oomph" and they might as well be playing a chromatic box.

George will maintain that B/C/C# gives you the best of both worlds. It's certainly an interesting compromise.

[Chris Ryall]

Just to be clear …  and apologies for not separating 2 aspects

1. In an eg C major box (other row G or F but not halftone)

Playing in "same tonic" C minor is generally, and in my experience truly awkward. The basses aren't set up for that, and taping out the E gives you a C5 "power" chord with no subtlety. If you have a push Eb on right end, you can switch between the different types of "C" with little fuss, and also have nice right end chords. Actually, playing with the fiddle that can be nice as you can "chew" them a bit rather than be limited to a metronomic Om Pah

But that's to take a pretty simple view of what a minor is? And almost certainly to risk clash with the other chap's music. Outside strict 'folk' minors also flatten the 7th in the chord so that "standard extend" may, or may not be available.

The 6th of a scale also also carries a lot of major/minor information. If he's in dorian (mode of Bb scale) you want an A there, if in simple/Neopolitan (mode of Eb and a "relative") then that's Ab. Moreover fiddlers sometimes mix the two, less commonly in Morris tunes than swing, but some Morris teams swing quite a lot nowadays?

The other elephant in the room, and especially with regard to chording is any harmonic minor structure where we'd keep the major 7 (= B here) - again fiddlers can be delightfully fluid, even using both in one tune!

Ok, forget the 6th as it's not in the chord? ... Well, yes, and no. It's not in our Cm is example, but it is in the other chords, notably the subdominants. We need to stay with our fiddle melody or we'll sound "out"

Back to organology - again "in my experience" ... even with some helper notes, it just isn't "there". One is left with alternation of C5 and G5 on either end Surely that qualifies as "thin"?

Playing in a non row tonic? The more you cross row in this (and that's how I play Bm "relative" on a DG) the more you can enrich the chords     Yes, anything like BCC# sorts many of these issues, unless one is in an unlucky unfavourable key. It reflects BCC#'s ability to flatten most notes at will (see 3rd, 6th and 7th comment above). A truly rich palate on right end, to say nothing of that Stadella left!

2. Apologies for the Gm comment, which confused issues. I was trying to reinforce "relativity" points. I guess my main point is that there is a lot more to minors than a minor third.

[tidied up for clarity ]

[Chris Ryall]

In a recent session with fiddlers I discovered Jump at the Sun is playable in Dm on a D/G box

The 'holier than thou' squad is Whitby's Elsinore would counter by playing it in Gm, at speed   Did you get in there when you came over? J@tS is also another splendid example of fluid flattening of notes in a minor tune. b3, b6, b7 ... with occasional b5's 

[Martin P]

As stated in my original post, this Dm dilemma occurs when playing for a Border side, so to honest subtleties of fingering take 2nd place to volume and rhythm. Part of the problem is that the fiddle player, although a very accomplished musician, has never played for a dance side before but has spent many years in sessions. So his idea of a good tune is "trickier the better" where as I just bash out loud polkas. Oh, and he is often less than sober!

[Anahata]

Looks like your problem goes a bit deeper than how to play in Dm on a melodeon.
More along the lines of "what do the dancers actually need?" and "who's in charge here?"

[Theo]

Indeed,  time for some home truths.

[george garside]

dancers need rhythm  in both melody and bass that provides lots of 'lift'  .This is best accomplished with simple solid tunes  rather than artyfarty stuff! Sounds like the aforementioned fiddler needs to be given guidance in the matter of playing for sancing

george