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Author Topic: Manfrini  (Read 9712 times)

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KLR

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2016, 02:31:48 AM »

Stephen Chambers once said that According to Nils Nielsen some of them were by Pancotti...  He stated on concertina.net that Nils figured it was the ones with black & white piping on the bellows. 

Various types of grey boxes were built for a good while, and were the first modern style Paolos - it was when things were being modernized in all types of boxes, really.  The 40s were a big decade for accordions, you had the PA builders adopt that black and white color pallet to match your tux, couplers became de rigeur, and they took much more of an interest in things like key action.  These sorts of concerns found their way into diatonic instruments too, wrapping everything in celluloid or utilizing clasps on the strappets were other more modern stylizations.  And the buttons were plastic and rounded, facilitating sliding around - I don't think you could do that with the type of buttons they were using before then, assuming they were the sort Hohner were using on diatonic boxes, the pokerwork type and the kind of orange sphere with screw through it, or the post with ivoroid flat disc style.  None of those lend themselves to sliding.  Perhaps the rounded wide button was decided on as an ideal with CBAs and found its way into the diatonic market too, easier to build just one style for everything after all.

It's taken long enough for someone to address this fixation on greys everyone has, too.  Other instruments have their iconic models too, but for decades now you could buy very nice playing copies of Rowsome pipe chanters, Pratten's Perfected wooden flutes, or Essex Paragon tenor banjos, but accordions are such big business no one could find the time to give the old wooden fondo a try.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2016, 07:00:17 AM »

About time we had some fixation on the 'pepperpot' models - they are as rare as the proverbial, and pretty special, I suspect, though I've only ever played one of them
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Pearse Rossa

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 10:04:37 AM »

Stephen Chambers once said that According to Nils Nielsen some of them were by Pancotti...  He stated on concertina.net that Nils figured it was the ones with black & white piping on the bellows. 
Piping on the bellows?
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melodeon

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 02:21:02 PM »

"Well, go on then - don't keep us all in suspenders."

I have decided to do as the Italian accordion industry seems to do and maintain and perpetuate mystery.. only to say that it had to do with P. Soprani's daughters and inheritance.
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KLR

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2016, 05:18:56 PM »

Stephen Chambers once said that According to Nils Nielsen some of them were by Pancotti...  He stated on concertina.net that Nils figured it was the ones with black & white piping on the bellows. 
Piping on the bellows?

Yes, decorative tape that goes over the frames.

With piping:



Sans piping:

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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2016, 06:03:32 PM »

Stephen Chambers once said that According to Nils Nielsen some of them were by Pancotti...  He stated on concertina.net that Nils figured it was the ones with black & white piping on the bellows. 
Piping on the bellows?

Yes, decorative tape that goes over the frames.


I understood the piping to be the decorative plastic strip on the actual body of the box and around the edge of the grille.
It's not tape and it's not on the bellows.
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triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2016, 06:23:17 PM »

Stephen Chambers once said that According to Nils Nielsen some of them were by Pancotti...  He stated on concertina.net that Nils figured it was the ones with black & white piping on the bellows. 

What Stephen Chambers actually said, here, is that "... Nielsen ... reckons those with the black & white piping, like this one [in Theo's now missing photos], were actually made by Pancotti, but I can't vouch for that - whilst he was in the trade at the time..."

Piping on the bellows?
Yes, decorative tape that goes over the frames.

It's actually strips of D-section celluloid, around the bellows frames, the grille, and sometimes the keyboard, whilst some boxes have short decorative lengths of it around the body corners too.

With piping:



Sans piping:



Now I'd say the top one (which used to be Colm Gannon's) has white piping, and the bottom one has black piping.

triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 06:48:05 PM »

My old O'Beirne DeWitt, Paolo Soprani, made in 1946 or '47, which is now owned and played by Colm Gannon, has the "black and white" (or white/black/white) piping I was referring to:


He did offer me a Manfrini as a trade on it (a couple of years ago), but I declined - there was no comparison in my eyes. For that matter, whenever I've seen him playing acoustically, in a session (like one with Noel Hill in Miltown Malbay a couple of months ago), it's always been on a Paolo Soprani. Though I believe he'd generally use a Manfrini, miked-up, on stage.

triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 07:04:59 PM »

Stephen Chambers once said that According to Nils Nielsen some of them were by Pancotti...  He stated on concertina.net that Nils figured it was the ones with black & white piping on the bellows. 

What Stephen Chambers actually said, here, is that "... Nielsen ... reckons those with the black & white piping, like this one [in Theo's now missing photos], were actually made by Pancotti, but I can't vouch for that - whilst he was in the trade at the time..."

And here's a better, more informative quote from me on the subject:

I remember seeing a post (from you Stephen?) on some other forum or thread suggesting that the paolos with the white piping around them were made by pancotti, like the greys recently posted on the D/C# paolo discussion

It's the ones with alternating white-black-white piping that Nielsen reckons are Pancottis, and he was very much involved in the trade at the time they were being sold new - firstly as a tuner with Hagstrom's (originally in Sweden, and then in England), and then in an accordion shop that he and Tollefsen had together.

KLR

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2016, 02:32:15 AM »

Thanks for clearing all that up, Stephen.  Didn't know Nils had been in the business that long.

Looking for Paolo pics I found this one: 



Which is about as modern as the pre-grey Paolos got, right?  And this one is a B/C - imported to Cork, no less:  Paolo Soprani 2 row button accordion 1930’s B&C tuning. | Crowleys Music  Interestingly enough this box was originally imported by T. Crowley, Tagdh and Dennis Crowley were music retailers in Cork who also built uilleann and warpipes - Paddy Keenan used to play a Crowley set; this box is being sold by a modern version of the shop which carries on the name.
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triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2016, 12:03:51 PM »

Didn't know Nils had been in the business that long.

Yes, he came to England, as a young factory-trained tuner (perhaps the only one in England?) when Hagstrom set up their factory there in the aftermath of WW2 - at a time when musical instrument imports were strictly controlled, if not outright banned, but a new factory was welcome.

Looking for Paolo pics I found this one: 



Which is about as modern as the pre-grey Paolos got, right?

It is, but those are considered large and clumsy, and not well-liked. Hence the low prices they fetch.

I've a strong suspicion that some early "greys" may have been made in the years 1939-42 though (like Sonny Brogan's old box that Paddy O'Brien has now, perhaps?), before resuming production in 1946.

Pearse Rossa

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2016, 04:44:00 PM »

I've a strong suspicion that some early "greys" may have been made in the years 1939-42 though (like Sonny Brogan's old box that Paddy O'Brien has now, perhaps?), before resuming production in 1946.

Paddy himself told me that his Paolo is dated 1947.
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triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2016, 11:17:42 PM »

I've a strong suspicion that some early "greys" may have been made in the years 1939-42 though (like Sonny Brogan's old box that Paddy O'Brien has now, perhaps?), before resuming production in 1946.

Paddy himself told me that his Paolo is dated 1947.

Well my old O'Beirne DeWitt, Paolo Soprani (which has the classic, aluminium, "grey box" grille) must have been made in 1946 (when production resumed after WW2) or '47 because there's a famous 1947 photo of Jerry O'Brien with Joe Derrane, and Jerry holding the identical box, whilst the Sonny Brogan/Paddy O'Brien one is most unusual and seems older, almost half-way to the large/bulky square-shaped model in KLR's photo, and you've already said (in the thread about Paddy's box) that "I played his box and I have to say it didn't exactly blow my skirt up. I found it too bulky"... (Doesn't it have a sliding coupler on the back of the keyboard even, like the 1930's 4-voice ones?)


And dates inside instruments are usually those of when repairs are carried out - it would be highly unusual for a factory to date one when it was new (though I wish they did!)

Maybe we'll find out for sure, one day?

Edited to add photo of Paddy O'Brien (right, Sonny Brogan is on the left) with the very same box (before it was modified). Notice that the grille pattern is the same as the 1930's square one, and runs much closer to the edge than on other streamlined models.

Pearse Rossa

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2016, 12:17:29 AM »

Paddy himself told me that his Paolo is dated 1947.
And dates inside instruments are usually those of when repairs are carried out - it would be highly unusual for a factory to date one when it was new

I didn't mean to suggest that the year 1947 is stamped somewhere inside.
Paddy never said that. I was merely relaying what he told me; his Paolo was made in 1947.
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triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2016, 05:53:35 AM »

Paddy himself told me that his Paolo is dated 1947.
I didn't mean to suggest that the year 1947 is stamped somewhere inside.
Paddy never said that. I was merely relaying what he told me; his Paolo was made in 1947.

Ah, "his Paolo is dated 1947" certainly suggested that.

And, in that case, I'll mention that he seems to have said 1948 on other occasions!

The Paolo in this photo of Sonny Brogan looks more like a late 1940's model, in fact it appears to be the 2-coupler version of the 3-voice that Joe Cooley was playing wth The Tulla around that time:

triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2016, 04:03:54 PM »

It's taken long enough for someone to address this fixation on greys everyone has, too.

Not quite "everyone" - I, for one, would much rather have my (Joe Cooley model) 1960's red, 3-voice D/D#, than any grey. Especially when it gets played with Des Mulkere on banjo!  ;)

... accordions are such big business no one could find the time to give the old wooden fondo a try.

"Old reds" usually have a wooden fondo, whilst I own a classic late-1940's "old grey" (only it's jet-black) that has an aluminium one...

The 1930's Baldoni and Walters boxes have aluminium ones too (and nobody ever says anything against the sound of them!) and my dark grey (1939?) Casali also has an aluminium fondo, and a great "bark" off it!

I don't think it's so significant...

KLR

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2016, 05:27:00 AM »

Truthfully the most glorious sounding accordion in my own small collection is the Giulietti PA.  Don't know if it's the cassotto or the reeds or the overall build but if you could have that sound in a diatonic accordion it would beat the band.  The widow of American button box repairman Peter Cashman actually had a Giulietti 2 row for sale a while ago, which I really would have liked to hear, don't have the idle spending money anymore to find out about such curios though.

The Paolo 3 row Blue Badge I bought from Peter's wife sounds great too, aluminum board and all.  Never had a big issue with the reds I've heard in person, Danny O'Mahoney's grey certainly struck me as sounding very nice and mellow though, could certainly hear the appeal.  If I could buy just one of Danny's oldies it'd be the Tom Carmody D/C# though, those Irish American boxes are dynamite.

That's very interesting about metal soundboards, wood is an obvious factor just like vinyl vs. leather valves but there's so much more going on in an accordion.

Kevin
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triskel

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2016, 06:47:11 PM »

The widow of American button box repairman Peter Cashman actually had a Giulietti 2 row for sale a while ago, which I really would have liked to hear, don't have the idle spending money anymore to find out about such curios though.

This is starting to get a bit weird, in fact I feel like I may now be entering The Twilight Zone Kevin.

I think I may have vaguely heard mention of Peter Cashman before he died, but I never had any contact, nor any dealings, with him. However, I have since (via the internet) found myself advising Suzanne about the selling of a couple of concertinas he had, and getting a better price than she was expecting...

It was only yesterday, though, that this Giulietti 2-row was first mentioned to me, because I posted a link on facebook about the North Clare home of my dear, and late, friend (concertina and button accordion player) Micilín Conlon having been finally put on the market, 22 years after he died.

The connection being that (Suzanne believes) the C#/D reeds in the Giulietti came out of a Paolo Soprani of Micilín's that Peter bought! It was an old mid-1950's one that Micilin would supposedly leave in culverts rather than bring home on the bike in the rain, which came to the US with David Levine. Apparently it was Peter's favourite red Paolo, and he replaced the rusty C#/D reeds that were in it and made it B/C.

Small world!  :o

KLR

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2016, 12:58:18 AM »

That's quite the bit of timing indeed.  That poor Paolo!  That was back when flute players poured Guiness down the bore to seal up cracks...I wonder where the Giulietti reeds wound up?  I bought my PA for its free bass feature but the tone is something to behold too - so much so that a book was published a while ago, The Giulietti Sound, profiling players of these things, which is praise that hasn't been heaped on Excelsior or Titano etc.  Julio Giulietti was a fanatic and then some about getting the best reeds for these boxes.  The bodies were built by Zero Sette.

Glad you could help Suzanne out, I felt a bit sheepish paying only $500 for my 3 row Paolo.  Maybe that's the going rate for a box like that though, with its stepped keyboard and teeny tiny useless air button.

Is she still trying to sell the Giulietti?  I was Peter's penultimate customer, he worked on the basses of two of my boxes, very neat work, I'd bet dollars to donuts he could clean every scrap of rust off an old reed, I bet that Giulietti's a heck of an accordion now. 

Aside from the Button Box people I think the only people working on diatonic boxes on the US east coast now are John Nolan and our own Paul Groff (who recommended I go to Peter), who do work as a sideline.  We could really use a college for accordion repair!  Even the PA people say so.  Of course in Ireland you at least have a handful of repair people.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Manfrini
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2016, 08:52:17 AM »

I've never forgotten seeing a fisherman at Rosroe in Co. Galway rinsing his flute in the sea before playing it. Or someone playing a Paolo in the street in the rain at Listowel at the Fleadh until the bellows parted.
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#
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