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Author Topic: When to add/suppress thirds on bass  (Read 4838 times)

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Maggie

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When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« on: October 03, 2016, 08:19:36 PM »

I am learning to play my G/C Saltarelle Elphique, 19+2 box and would like to know more about using the thirds suppression button on the bass.  How do I know when to open it and allow the lovely full bass sound?  The only bit I know is to close it for minor keys, but how do I know when it is a minor key?
Maggie  :|||:
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Winston Smith

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2016, 08:25:49 PM »

At a pure guess, I'd say, "When they sound discordant." (But I don't know music.)
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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2016, 08:43:35 PM »

The third stop does two main things.  Firstly it makes all of your chords ambiguous (either major or minor) so it can, as Edward says, be a cure for chords which may sound discordant with the melody.  This is often used to play in minor keys (mainly D minor on the G/C tuning which otherwise would have a D major chord).

The second is to lighten the sound and feel of the bass side - especially for playing a more droney accompaniment.  Because the remaining notes play in fifths they are far more subtle sounding under the melody and it is used more as an alternative effect than to affect which chords are effectively being played.

Normally you would have to commit to choosing thirds in or out at the start of the tune as it's a bit inconvenient to change the stop in play (although not unheard of).
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Maggie

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2016, 08:58:29 PM »

Thanks.  So is it an unnecessary add-on to have the thirds, or are there types of tunes that will sound better with them?
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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2016, 09:04:29 PM »

Maggie, sorry to be pedantic but it's a Saltarelle l'Elfique.
I play mine with thirds in for English Lumpy Tunes and thirds out for most everything else.

rees

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2016, 09:06:16 PM »


I play mine with thirds in for English Lumpy Tunes and thirds out for most everything else.

Pretty much, aye.
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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2016, 01:53:12 AM »

You can play just fine with the thirds in on any tune once you understand how to make the crossover Dm7 and Em7 on your basses. It's very easy!

Since I don't have a choice other than taping them, I prefer thirds in for a fuller sound and richness.

Having a choice is better, without a stop my COMPROMISE is to leave the thirds in. 

Last thought: On a GC, many are inspired by the music of Stephane Delicq. He played almost every composition I have heard with the thirds in.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 02:00:59 AM by stevejay »
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Matthew B

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2016, 02:46:23 AM »

There are a lot of "crossed" chords that become available when the thirds are pulled from the bass end, and still more possibilities open up if you pull out the low bass reed.  It can be fun exploring them, and throwing a few in here and there is an easy way to transform a familiar tune into something a bit more exotic.
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Maggie

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2016, 05:09:45 AM »

This sounds interesting - I like the bass sound with thirds in.  Where can I learn about crossover bass chords?
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Anahata

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2016, 07:44:55 AM »

The main "crossover chords" are a fake A minor by playing a A bass with a C chord, and a fake B minor by playing the B bass with a D chord. Both combinations actually make "minor 7th" chords but in many contexts that fits the music well enough.
The Bmin7 combination is only useful if you don't have a B minor chord (some boxes have a B major), and of course I should add that I'm talking about D/G boxes here.*

Some people like to play a D bass with a C chord, which may have a name (D9sus ?)  but is entirely too jazzy for my liking.

* on your G/C box, that would be a Dm7 (Dbass + F chord) and Em7 (E bass + G chord**) if your E chord is a major.

**corrrected: NOT "C chord" as I originally incorrectly stated.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 10:25:46 AM by Anahata »
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Maggie

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2016, 08:33:00 AM »

Thanks Anahata, I will try this.  Have seen people crossing their bass and chords but didn't know why.  Lots to experiment with   :|||:
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brianread

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2016, 09:41:09 AM »

The main "crossover chords" are a fake A minor by playing a A bass with a C chord, and a fake B minor by playing the B bass with a D chord. Both combinations actually make "minor 7th" chords but in many contexts that fits the music well enough.
The Bmin7 combination is only useful if you don't have a B minor chord (some boxes have a B major), and of course I should add that I'm talking about D/G boxes here.*

Some people like to play a D bass with a C chord, which may have a name (D9sus ?)  but is entirely too jazzy for my liking.

* on your G/C box, that would be a Dm7 (Dbass + F chord) and Em7 (E bass + C chord) if your E chord is a major.

I understood that those crossover chords are only "really" correct if the thirds are out?  However I have a selection of boxes some with thirds out and some with them in, and I do the AM7 in all cases, with no apparent real loss of effect!
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Wolfgang

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2016, 09:45:25 AM »

Regarding the minor 7th chords I also recommend a video by one of the members here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KzdOkSyZ4

I found that very instructive.

Greets
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arty

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2016, 10:17:53 AM »


* on your G/C box, that would be a Dm7 (Dbass + F chord) and Em7 (E bass + C chord) if your E chord is a major.

For the Em7, that should read E bass + G chord, (push), played with the thirds IN.

Maggie, if you want to practice this, try This month's Tune of the Month, Nadiejda by Stephane Delicq. He uses both of these chords in many of his tunes, so they are well worth getting used to.
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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2016, 10:20:37 AM »

I understood that those crossover chords are only "really" correct if the thirds are out?

No, the third from the chord is the fifth of the bass note and has every right to be there.
If you removed the fifth instead of the third, you'd have, for example, C+E with A bass and then you'd have a pure minor chord without the seventh. I believe someone around here has a Giordy tuned like this.
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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2016, 10:21:38 AM »

For the Em7, that should read E bass + G chord, (push), played with the thirds IN.

You are quite correct! I'll amend my post.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2016, 10:28:29 AM »

I understood that those crossover chords are only "really" correct if the thirds are out?  However I have a selection of boxes some with thirds out and some with them in, and I do the AM7 in all cases, with no apparent real loss of effect!
No - they work better if the thirds are left in. That's the whole point.
Bm7 = B bass + D chord, so the notes generated are B D F# A. 
The interval B to D is a minor third, which gives the chord its minor sound. To complete the minor triad chord you really need the F# which would be the fifth in the Bm chord. But because of the melodeon construction, you can't have the D chord without the A in it too. It's the A which gives the Bm7 chord its seventh 'jazzy' feel.

If you have the thirds taken out using a stop, or taped out, then you lose the F# so you also lose that part (the fifth) of the underlying minor triad. The resulting chord is sort of all right, but it becomes much less characterful and rather 'empty'.

Similarly with Am7 = A bass + C chord:
The notes generated are A C E G. This time it is the E which is the fifth in the A minor chord and as it is also the third in the C chord, it would be lost with the thirds stopped or taped out.

Ultimately it's a matter of personal preference, but I believe the character of those minor seventh chords is best served by leaving the melodeon thirds in.

Edit: cross-posted with Anahata's explanation which is more concise than mine!  ;)
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Maggie

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2016, 11:19:35 AM »

Thank you all for your replies.  Much appreciated.  I am enjoying this forum very much.  Lovely to talk melodeon in English!   :|||:
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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2016, 12:16:40 PM »

I understood that those crossover chords are only "really" correct if the thirds are out?

No, the third from the chord is the fifth of the bass note and has every right to be there.
If you removed the fifth instead of the third, you'd have, for example, C+E with A bass and then you'd have a pure minor chord without the seventh. I believe someone around here has a Giordy tuned like this.

aha - that is very good news - I might well un-tape my G/D in that case!!
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Brian Read
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Chris Ryall

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2016, 01:13:53 PM »

Don't forget the major 7 chords - eg playing in C major …

Am on F bass = F maj 7 works with or without taping, its 5th is C ;)

E on C bass = C maj7 fails untaped due to G# being an 'OUT' note in C scale
                      taped you get  [ C E (no 5) B ] = a very passable Cmaj7

So my rule is that straight folk music, modal scales - keep thirds is nice, arguably 'proper'
Once you start chord extending (the min7s :: too) your left end is more stable with thirds

[ed] 'transposed' into C scale having re-read the OP  ::)

        @Brian (the min7s generally work, the maj7s may, or may not as per above)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 01:18:29 PM by Chris Ryall »
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