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Author Topic: When to add/suppress thirds on bass  (Read 4836 times)

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Jack Humphreys

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2016, 02:58:11 PM »

I'm grateful for this discussion. I realise that I have been leaving out the thirds by default in all the minor tunes I play on the Loffet CF,  without thinking whether 3rds would suit the tune or not. 
I've just been playing a few E minor tunes  (DG-speak) with thirds IN, and it's been a revelation!! especially the full impact of the D# in the B chord, and especially after Bm7 earlier in the tune.  Leaving the thirds in seems to give a lot more varied colour to the tunes, and more importance to the left hand. 
I think that it's quite common for makers like serafini, rutovski etc to make instruments without 3rds, which would help manoeuvrability ; but  after this discussion I'm glad I have the thirds option.   I'll still leave them out if they weigh down the tune too much.

I play a lot in A minor  fingering (D-G-speak), and there I find it essential to have thirds out, as Am7 just won't do for the tonic chord (imho).  Same for D minor.

In my experiments I did find that it's more EFFORT to play the left hand when the thirds are in, and louder of course, with more reeds playing.

-
Squeezing in another topic  (on theme of reduced specifications) the French/Catalan melodeon duo "21 boutons" played a Bal at Bristol on Friday. Lovely sweet and gentle style and perfect musicianship.   Small Accordeons by serafinia and Rutowski.  Both I think were bandoneon tuning.  So that was an entirely DRY evening in terms of tuning at least. No tremulo/brio whatever. Like concertinas at times.  Very Nice, but.... sometimes a bit too nice for me, and I'd have liked a bit of grit in the oyster.  So once again,  I'm pleased I have the  stop  for a hint of wetness, especially for the MM.

Thanks again to wonderful melnet.

brianread

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2016, 05:22:59 PM »

I play a lot in A minor  fingering (D-G-speak), and there I find it essential to have thirds out, as Am7 just won't do for the tonic chord (imho).  Same for D minor.

Now I'm more confused, I also play a bit in Am, and use the cross rowing A, C combination.  Does that mean I ought to leave the thirds out?
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Brian Read
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all played "lefty" with mostly an extra air button, except the Concertinas which I play the conventional way round.

Theo

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2016, 05:26:44 PM »

Trust your ears Brian,  if you like how it sounds it's right.
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brianread

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2016, 05:40:01 PM »

Trust your ears Brian,  if you like how it sounds it's right.

Will do.
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Brian Read
D/G Oakwood (new model), D/G, C /F, Bb/Eb and E/A Liliputs,
A STREB!!,
2.5 D/G Self made Emmanuel Pariselle, D/G Pokerwork,
and Wolverton Advanced G/D Anglo Concertina and C/G  1937 Wheatstone.
all played "lefty" with mostly an extra air button, except the Concertinas which I play the conventional way round.

Maggie

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2016, 05:53:38 PM »

I have just found the pdf file of bass and chords for the G/C.  Very useful resource and thankyou to whoever posted it
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playandteach

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2016, 10:07:29 PM »

I play a lot in A minor  fingering (D-G-speak), and there I find it essential to have thirds out, as Am7 just won't do for the tonic chord (imho).  Same for D minor.

Now I'm more confused, I also play a bit in Am, and use the cross rowing A, C combination.  Does that mean I ought to leave the thirds out?
3rds out is the only option on my main box. But I know what you mean about the lack of finality with the extra note (A bass plus C chord in D/G talk) - for me it feels homeless. The best answer is to get a G/C box - then it's A minor all day long.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2016, 09:41:45 AM »

DG speak

C on A bass is Am7.  All thirds out does is excise the 5th from a crossed chord. Outside jazz "altered" stuff the 5th is truly weak harmonically, a simple harmonic of the bass. I hear only minor difference - it doesn't seem to  matter in actual play

that "lack of finality" you mention is definitely an issue. Min 7s always have a jazz feel, and even in jazz will often be "resolved" onto a min6 in eg 2-5-1 progressions.

For a more "anchored" feel to the chord I use C bass rather than chord. This becomes a minor interval 2-note diad, but as above the ear expects, and brain interpollates the missing E from the harmonics. It's a workaround, but gives a different feel to that final chord while allowing the vigour of the crossed min7 within body of the tune (if you like that).

A true Am can be done easily: A+C+E basses. But to my ear is so low voiced as to be ponderous. Why might A+C work then? Don't know, may be my own voicings - so do experiment.

[ed] see anahata below. As ever on box it is the 'art of the possible'
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 12:55:34 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Anahata

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2016, 11:05:00 AM »

DG speak
[ for A minor ]
For a more "anchored" feel to the chord I use C bass rather than chord.
If you go that route, try A + E basses too. Grunty fifth a.k.a. power chord, fits major or minor, possibly less muddy than A + C because A and E share a lot of strong harmonics. It's not a minor chord, but it it's weightier than a thirdless chord because it includes lower reeds.
That type of fifth also works for G+D (push),  D+A (pull), and C+G (push).
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Maggie

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2016, 10:23:01 AM »

With The advice on crossing basses and as Arty suggested, I have tried to learn Nadiejda and have posted my best effort in the tune of the month page. 
Thanks again for the advice, another wee jump in my learning.

Maggie :|||:
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Saltarelle l'elfique 19+2 in G/C - and a wee Hohner Lilliput in D/G

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baz parkes

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2016, 12:31:19 PM »

Trust your ears Brian,  if you like how it sounds it's right.

Indeed...I was going to (only partially) flippantly comment initial "When it sounds good..."  ;)
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Cooper

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Re: When to add/suppress thirds on bass
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2016, 12:15:25 PM »

I understood that those crossover chords are only "really" correct if the thirds are out?

No, the third from the chord is the fifth of the bass note and has every right to be there.
If you removed the fifth instead of the third, you'd have, for example, C+E with A bass and then you'd have a pure minor chord without the seventh. I believe someone around here has a Giordy tuned like this.

Didnt read the whole thread, but giordy, out of the box (like mine) has chords with only third and fifth (to combine easily with the prime under he bass-button for a full chord).
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