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Author Topic: The rise of D/G (and the fall of "English Chromatic" C/C#) since 1949  (Read 46678 times)

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baz parkes

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2016, 06:01:00 PM »

Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I'd love to see him again and tell him how much I've enjoyed the boxes he's fixed for me.

Rob.

Mark Bazeley (Bob's grandson for those who might not know) still plays Bob's box...I'll ask him what he knows...unless someone else does first...
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triskel

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2016, 07:03:14 PM »

Certainly the renowned Dartmoor player Bob Cann, born in 1919 and playing for dances by the 1940s, was later known for playing a post-war Hohner Club III M that must have been converted, to be in D/G.

I am not sure about to boxes he played in the 1940,s but to the best of my memory the one I danced to late 60,s early 70,s was converted to DG by Ivor Hyde. I believe It also did have the dreaded glechion! because when Bob borrowed my 3 voice ADG Corona to try on one occasion he could not get on with because he missed having the glechion.
But Ivor would be the person to confirm this

Ah, thanks for that!

There's at least one old photo of a young Bob Cann playing a 2-row Hohner, on the Moor Music page, but he may well have later got used to having a gleichton on his red Hohner Club IIIM (which must be the box you danced to).

Maybe those Hagstroms did have "the dreaded gleichton" after all then.

I suppose this begs the question of did Peter Kennedy's boxes have a gleichton - does anybody know?

triskel

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2016, 07:11:23 PM »

Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I guess the first one would have been Bob's red Club IIIM, which got passed on to Mark Bazeley in 1983 when Bob bought a new melodeon, a Hohner Ouverture V - which must be the one that ended up with those Italian reeds...  :(

Pearse Rossa

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2016, 07:24:44 PM »

..Maybe those Hagstroms did have "the dreaded gleichton" after all then.

I suppose this begs the question of did Peter Kennedy's boxes have a gleichton - does anybody know?

..And if the answer is yes, then why?  These players went from one row melodeon and playing predominantly on the C row of C/C# or C/F boxes to playing the Club system?
There must be something else going on!
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triskel

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2016, 07:52:36 PM »

..And if the answer is yes, then why?  These players went from one row melodeon and playing predominantly on the C row of C/C# or C/F boxes to playing the Club system?
There must be something else going on!

It was probably simply that

a) that's how Hohner made them, and people played instruments as they were in those days - whilst both the Club system and the gleichton have lots of fans and adherents, though chiefly in Central Europe. In fact if you were Swiss, or Slovenian, or somesuch, you'd think your 4th-tuned box with gleichton(es) perfectly normal, and B/C system totally bizarre! (For that matter, there were whole Accordion Club bands of Club Models in Ireland in the 1930s, and I've even seen a photo of them being used at that time in an ITM setting...  :o)

and

b) there wasn't a whole caste of fettlers to customise boxes for you if you did want something different anyway.

baz parkes

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2016, 08:44:28 PM »

From Mark on the Club box he now plays which was Bob's

"It was originally C/F and Ivor Hyde did re-tune it to D/G for gramps. He tuned each reed individually so it has the original Morino reeds in their original places rather than moving reeds around and replacing some. It was a big job! Five voices on the treble and bass."

And on the Gleichton

"Never heard it called that before, or even knew it had an actual name! I used to call it the wine gum as it looks a bit like the small round wine gums you used to be able to get in a tube, rather than the big shapes they are these days! It is the same note on the push and pull as it was originally, except tuned up a tone. I've always played a club box hence why I struggle a bit on a non club box, but not as much as watching the look on someone else's face when they play my box without realising!"

I]ll ask about date 
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baz parkes

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2016, 08:57:49 PM »

Sadly I haven't seen Ivor for a few years now.  I do recall his mentioning that he once converted a Club for Bob Cann.  Later of course the Pixie Band approached him to repeat the feat, but he was not inclined to go through the process again so it was agreed he should re-reed the box with Italian reeds.  Presumably the scale length didn't suit the reed blocks as he said it was a bit of a disaster!

I guess the first one would have been Bob's red Club IIIM, which got passed on to Mark Bazeley in 1983 when Bob bought a new melodeon, a Hohner Ouverture V - which must be the one that ended up with those Italian reeds...  :(

Not sure of the model, but I know it's black... (:)

More from Mark

"Gramps got the box from Roger Watson who was working for Hohner at the time and had it as a demonstrator. It's a Hohner Overture V and was basically a bigger version of his current box at that time, a red Hohner Club IIIM. I think I was about ten as when Gramps got it he gave me the red one and that's what I started playing after the concertina. So that would have been about 1982 ish, +/- a year or two! "

Spot on Rob... :|glug
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 09:09:48 PM by baz parkes »
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2016, 10:55:50 PM »

..And if the answer is yes, then why?  These players went from one row melodeon and playing predominantly on the C row of C/C# or C/F boxes to playing the Club system?
There must be something else going on!

It was probably simply that

a) that's how Hohner made them, and people played instruments as they were in those days - whilst both the Club system and the gleichton have lots of fans and adherents, though chiefly in Central Europe (In fact there were whole Accordion Club bands of Club Models in Ireland in the 1930s... )

and

b) there wasn't a whole caste of fettlers to customise boxes for you if you did want something different anyway.

Yes, but I was referring to this piece of information:
.. Peter Kennedy then took up D/G and seems to have been behind the more general introduction of the system.

It was Peter who got the first D/G instruments manufactured for the English folk market - a batch of Club Models built by Hagstrom....

Why didn't Peter Kennedy go for standard D/G instruments? He was having the boxes custom made almost.
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triskel

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2016, 11:33:46 PM »

Yes, but I was referring to this piece of information:
.. Peter Kennedy then took up D/G and seems to have been behind the more general introduction of the system.

It was Peter who got the first D/G instruments manufactured for the English folk market - a batch of Club Models built by Hagstrom....

Why didn't Peter Kennedy go for standard D/G instruments? He was having the boxes custom made almost.

We don't know that he didn't, like I said, nobody has seen one.

But my point was that Peter may have followed the lead set by the Dartmoor players who started things off with their retuned Hohners, and Mark Bazeley has now told us that at least Bob Cann (if nobody else) retained the original Club fingering with the gleichton.

I wonder how 1956 All-Ireland Champion George Ross (right) and his friend got on with the Club Models they're playing in the photo below?

triskel

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2016, 11:41:47 PM »

I guess the first one would have been Bob's red Club IIIM, which got passed on to Mark Bazeley in 1983 when Bob bought a new melodeon, a Hohner Ouverture V - which must be the one that ended up with those Italian reeds...  :(

Great to have the low-down from the ultimate authority on the subject! (The gospel according to Mark, so to speak...  ;))

But they're Morino reeds he says, and tuning them all up by a full tone is both arduous on the tuner, and pretty severe on the reed tongues - they'd want to have started out with plenty of meat on them!

rees

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2016, 12:49:23 AM »

As I recall from conversations with Ivor, there are two black Ouvertures. The first one had Morino reeds tuned up from C/F to D/G (arduous indeed but successful!) and the second one had Italian D/G reeds fitted and was "a bit of a disaster".
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2016, 07:35:12 AM »

Why didn't Peter Kennedy go for standard D/G instruments? He was having the boxes custom made almost.
We don't know that he didn't, like I said, nobody has seen one.

Is it at all possible that some of the earliest German-built D/G Ericas or Pokerworks still around today originated from Peter Kennedy's initial ordering? We wouldn't necessarily today know their provenance.
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triskel

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2016, 09:36:29 AM »

Is it at all possible that some of the earliest German-built D/G Ericas or Pokerworks still around today originated from Peter Kennedy's initial ordering? We wouldn't necessarily today know their provenance.

Well, not exactly, because Peter Kennedy's initial ordering was of Hagstrom Club models - licensed only to be sold to EFDS members in 1949. The earliest German-built Hohner D/G Ericas or Pokerworks were a later (1955) commercial venture on the part of Bell's of Surbiton, though (no doubt) at somebody's behest - could it have been Peter Kennedy's?

I know who two of the first Hohner buyers were though, one of them is Brian Hayden (who got the last of the batch (of 10?) Ericas, the other is Reg Hall who made great use of the Pokerwork he got, playing it with the likes of Scan Tester, Walter Bulwer and others.

Maybe one or two of those boxes have survived, but you wouldn't know them if you saw one, unless its history was known...  :(

Howard Jones

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2016, 09:40:41 AM »

1) There is no need to "dread" the gleichton, it just requires a slightly different approach to playing. It is only a problem when you are used to playing a "normal" keyboard, but with a bit of concentration you can soon adjust for it.  For some time I played a club system in C/F as well as a normal D/G, and found it was not a problem provided I played only tunes which I'd worked out specifically to take account if the gleichton (I was using it mainly for song accompaniment). I eventually had it de-clubbed so I could busk on it more easily, but only after considerable thought and with a little regret, as the gleichton does offer some benefits.

2) Since it is usually fiddlers who gripe that sessions are confined to D and G for the sake of the melodeons, I find it ironic that we have adopted the D/G (which is not the optimum tuning, being a bit too high-pitched) in order to play along with them in the first place.

Theo

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2016, 09:44:00 AM »


2) Since it is usually fiddlers who gripe that sessions are confined to D and G for the sake of the melodeons, I find it ironic that we have adopted the D/G (which is not the optimum tuning, being a bit too high-pitched) in order to play along with them in the first place.

If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Anahata

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2016, 10:06:15 AM »

1) There is no need to "dread" the gleichton

I'm glad somebody said that.
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Anahata

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2016, 10:12:15 AM »

If only it had been AD that was adopted to play along with fiddles.  Nice low pitch, usable across the entire range.

The fiddlers would have only complained that they couldn't play in G.
Not to mention other keys: last night in a session, I put my D/G melodeon down and listened while fiddlers went through a set of tunes in G minor and B flat.
(At least it meant William Taylor's Tabletop Hornpipe was played in the right key for a change. And The Savage Hornpipe.)
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Theo

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2016, 10:23:48 AM »

Agreed Anahata! My view (like yours apparently) is that it's a good thing sometimes not to play, so that others, like fiddlers,  can play in keys they enjoy.
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triskel

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2016, 10:29:02 AM »

1) There is no need to "dread" the gleichton

I'm glad somebody said that.

Sorry but I couldn't find the "tongue-in-cheek" smiley...  ;)

baz parkes

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Re: The rise of D/G, since 1949
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2016, 06:31:56 PM »

As I recall from conversations with Ivor, there are two black Ouvertures. The first one had Morino reeds tuned up from C/F to D/G (arduous indeed but successful!) and the second one had Italian D/G reeds fitted and was "a bit of a disaster".

Again from Mark

"I think Ivor took over a year to do the conversion though. He did a bit every few days as it was such a big job! "...I think that counts as "arduous" :|glug :|glug....
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