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Author Topic: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk  (Read 4232 times)

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Jack Humphreys

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Continuing the novice miking-up saga....

My belt battery box (from two mics)  has a 3.5 stereo mini-jack  output socket, and a switch to select mono/stereo.

a) What do you advise as the best and most often used output to the mixing desk:  a 1/4 inch jack output or an XLR output ? 

Seems to me that a mono output would be easier and better, as audio separation of bass and treble  is unnecessary and probably undesirable.

b) Supposing I have a single mono output (jack or XLR),  will that work OK from my stereo minijack input, provided I switch the belt box to "mono".  Or do I need an adaptor to convert the stereo input to mono output?

 c) Would it be better for the electronics, to have a stereo output, i.e. a  single stereo cable with two output plugs........ even though they would normally be switched to mono sound?

Many thanks for advice previously received from Ian, Howard, Guy et al.


Graham Spencer

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2016, 09:46:56 AM »

The best option, I would have thought, is balanced mono output via an XLR cable; You should be able to get a 3.5 to XLR adaptor.  Otherwise, I'd go for a plain quarter inch jack.

Graham
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2016, 10:03:22 AM »

Yes, a balanced XLR type is preferred as it offers interference rejection - though in small band set-ups this is not often needed, but it is a useful improvement in an electrically "dirty" environment.  You say the battery box has a mono/stereo switch so you may as well rig for stereo as you can then chose to switch it to mono.  Perhaps surprisingly, in our ceilidh band they prefer to have seperate channels for LH and RH on the box as the LH is the nearest thing to a bass instrument we have and in some accoustics it needs to be boosted to add some oomph to the overall sound.

Looking at it from a mechanical viewpoint is different, though.  Battery boxes often have miniature connectors and to convert to an XLR output means dangling a relatively bulky adapter on it so it is no longer comfortable to wear on your belt or strap!  If you can make up an adapter cable to put that bulk on the floor, then that may work well, but you probably end up with a couple of metres of unbalance cable which can act as an antenna for interference.  There are stories, some perhaps apocryphal, of PA systems broadcasting taxi radios as they drive past.

Rob.
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Clive Williams

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2016, 11:25:33 AM »

I get results with 1/4 jack to a DI box and a xlr from the DI box to the desk. Bernard Loffet (ace sound guy as well as melodeon maker) at Gennetines tends to DI every instrument mic, even if you could have wired directly and it does make things work much better. I suspect his main reason was simply to make his.life easier though!

Winston Smith

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2016, 11:35:14 AM »

I've been trying to make some sense of these microphone threads, but I don't have the right Enigma Machine. (Apologies for thread drift.)
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penn

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2016, 11:57:37 AM »

Yes a DI box will make the connections simpler and it will be a proper balanced XLR running from it. You can't balance a signal purely with an adaptor from jack to XLR. I use one of these https://www.studiospares.com/Microphones/DI-Boxes/Studiospares-Dual-Passive-DI-Box_449300.htm and a single channel version they had a special deal on (£10 I think). They're nice and quiet and have a pad switch to adjust level which might be useful for a microphone output. I had two of the dual channel Behringer passive DI boxes s that were both much too noisy to use.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2016, 12:09:53 PM »

Sorry, coughing and sneezing so brain a little bit fuddled.  As I understand it, an XLR connector and cable has two signal cables and a central (in terms of voltage rqange) cable.  Any interference will pick up more or less equally on both signal cables so when recombined they cancel each other out.  Even if the signal is introduced through a jack/XLR adapter which will put the signal on a single cable, interference pick-up will be the same and will cancel. 

Rob.
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howard mitchell

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2016, 02:47:42 PM »

Sorry, coughing and sneezing so brain a little bit fuddled.  As I understand it, an XLR connector and cable has two signal cables and a central (in terms of voltage rqange) cable.  Any interference will pick up more or less equally on both signal cables so when recombined they cancel each other out.  Even if the signal is introduced through a jack/XLR adapter which will put the signal on a single cable, interference pick-up will be the same and will cancel. 

Rob.

A balanced line has a ground connection (the screen) and two signal wires.

One of the wires will carry the +ve signal and the other either the -ve signal (the same as the +ve but phase inverted) or be connected to ground via a path with the same impedance as the +ve signal, (Impedance Balanced)

Noise will be picked up equally if the impedances of the two signal paths are equal.

The balanced input at the desk takes the difference between the two incoming signals (hence differential) giving
(+V+noise) minus (-V+noise) = 2V.

If the line is just impedance balanced you get 
(+V+noise) minus (0+noise) = V   

Lots of equipment is just impedance balanced, including the AKG B29L battery box.

A mono jack to XLR adapter wont do any of this.

Mitch
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 10:19:37 AM by Howard Mitchell-Borts (Mitch) »
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baz parkes

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2016, 03:10:11 PM »

There are stories, some perhaps apocryphal, of PA systems broadcasting taxi radios as they drive past.

Rob.

We used to do a regular gig at a church hall in Stockport (so good they named it once...).  The sound check was frequently enlivened by extracts from early evening mass in the adjacent church,  Modern priests and their radio mikes, eh.... :|glug
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Theo

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2016, 03:32:56 PM »

There is a venue in Newcastle where radio mikes are likely to pick up the bingo caller on the next floor!
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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2016, 03:33:05 PM »

I've been trying to make some sense of these microphone threads, but I don't have the right Enigma Machine. (Apologies for thread drift.)
Don't worry Edward, I don't understand a word of it either.


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Jack Humphreys

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2016, 06:18:03 PM »

Isn't Melnet wonderful. So much expert help and so quickly. Thank you everyone. I don't fully understand but hope I've got the outline.

I assume that my battery box (with it's "Mic" and "Line" output options)  is all I need to cope, and that this will do the job of a DI box.

So this is my understanding of what to do, mostly helped by Rob.
Have I got it right?

A *stereo*  3.5 mm jackplug into my Battery Box,
A short extension cable to the floor,
An adapter  to go from stereo 3.5 mm  to  XLR.
An XLR cable to the mixing desk.

If the extension cables starts to pick up taxis, vicars etc,  then do without the extension and run an  3.5 to XLR adapter and cable direct from the battery box.

Consider putting the battery box on the chair/floor and doing without an extension cable. The mike cable is just long enough.

 :Ph

Clive Williams

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2016, 06:39:46 PM »

Not quite - plug the battery box into the DI box. Seriously! I do it all the time with AKG battery box - turns a so-so signal into a good one.

howard mitchell

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2016, 08:34:05 PM »

You can get ready made leads which go from 3.5 mm jack to 1 or 2 male XLRs.
The output of the B23 is not balanced but this will get the signal to the mixer. The B23 manual does imply that the output is protected from phantom power from a desk when connected like this.

If you want to go via a DI then you can get similar ready made 3.5 mm to 6.35mm , mono or stereo leads.

Mitch.
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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2016, 08:48:28 PM »

It seems there are quite a few ways to skin this particular cat. I'm watching with interest because I have just bought the Microvox kit from Benammi. Maybe this is all completely irrelevant. Or maybe not. I'll have to wait to experiment.
Another thought - when I do install this kit - does that make it a useful thing for recording for youtube- or am I better off using the USB Yeti Mic I already have?
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Graham Spencer

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2016, 08:56:49 PM »

Another thought - when I do install this kit - does that make it a useful thing for recording for youtube- or am I better off using the USB Yeti Mic I already have?

This is only my opinion: I find a Microvox satisfactory for live work in a reasonably loud band, but I'd always use a decent stand mic for recording, or indeed for concerts or gigs with a quiet band. I'd stay with your Yeti for recording purposes.  Others may disagree.

Graham
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Howard Jones

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2016, 09:36:27 AM »

Thread drift warning:

There are stories, some perhaps apocryphal, of PA systems broadcasting taxi radios as they drive past.

Rob.

We used to do a regular gig at a church hall in Stockport (so good they named it once...).  The sound check was frequently enlivened by extracts from early evening mass in the adjacent church,  Modern priests and their radio mikes, eh.... :|glug

I know where you mean.  When we played there, someone came round to complain the sound check was interrupting mass...

Howard Jones

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2016, 10:00:57 AM »

Jack, what you are suggesting should work, but a DI box is not very much more expensive than a jack-xlr converter (especially relative to what you've already spent) and will provide a balanced signal, which is better.  If you can get hold of a B29L this has an XLR output (I don't understand why AKG have discontinued this).

Whether you choose mono or stereo will depend on how many channels are available on the desk and whether the sound engineer can cope. If they can both handle it, stereo will allow separate EQing of bass and treble and for the volume to be balanced at the desk, rather than by you fiddling with the levels on the B23.

You don't have to worry about taxis these days.  Baz's and my issues with the priest were due to shared channels with radio mics, so you don't need to worry unless you ditch the cables and go wireless.

Anahata

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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2016, 11:17:03 AM »

It seems there are quite a few ways to skin this particular cat. I'm watching with interest because I have just bought the Microvox kit from Benammi.
If the mixer has a jack input (usually labelled "line in") you could try using that directly from the Microvox battery box with a simple jack-jack cable. The line input is less sensitive than the XLR but the Microvox is quite high output and in practice we have used it successfully. There's no phantom power (that's good!). You don't get a balanced connection that way, but we never had any trouble with interference on a shortish length of cable (mixer on stage with band).
Otherwise you can get a 1/4" jack-XLRM cable but if you want to go though XLR you're far safer using a DI box because
  • It will protect your Microvox kit from phantom power
  • It will supply a balanced feed to the mixer

Quote
Another thought - when I do install this kit - does that make it a useful thing for recording for youtube- or am I better off using the USB Yeti Mic I already have?
You'll probably be better off with the USB mic for overall sound quality, but try both*. One big difference will be that the Microvox, being very close to the sound source, will not pick up much room acoustic.

*experimentation is an essential feature of all good sound engineering, especially microphone choice.
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Re: Tech advice requested: Connecting mic output cable to mixing desk
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2016, 11:30:19 AM »

BTW thanks to Mitch for an excellent and correct explanation of how balanced connections work, including understanding that balanced impedances are the only requirement for interference rejection.
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