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[Steve_freereeder]

Going back to the idea of Morris playing.  You should definitely listen to Frank Lee playing for Hexham Morris.

Hear, hear!

Frank is playing here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNjfuWezKBg
and a slightly less weather-beaten version here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSZBO6HnX1U

Another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n0A2cEdsIE

Various videos out there. Google 'Hexham Morris'.

[playandteach]

Going back to the idea of Morris playing.  You should definitely listen to Frank Lee playing for Hexham Morris.

Thanks, is that something that goes on throughout the year? Or do I have to look out for festivals?

[Steve_freereeder]

Going back to the idea of Morris playing.  You should definitely listen to Frank Lee playing for Hexham Morris.

Thanks, is that something that goes on throughout the year? Or do I have to look out for festivals?

Just go along to one of their weekly practices. From the Hexham Morris website:
"Hexham Morris consist of  2 groups, Hexham Morrismen and Hexhamshire Lasses. The teams have separate practice times. Hexham Morrismen practice in Acomb village hall on a Thursday night from 7.30pm.  The Hexhamshire Lasses meet in Corbridge Middle School, near Hexham on a Monday night,  Clog at 7pm and Morris at 8pm."

[Chris Brimley]

I'm sure you're right, Steve, my qualm was in using 'the morris' as some kind of basic tradition for the melodeon, simply because any implication of 'Anglo-centrism' may not be appropriate to the OP's situation, or indeed to the context of a wider international political debate.  I'm not against morris tunes in any way, they're great, but please excuse me if I feel sometimes that we all forget this is actually an international forum.

[Lester]

I'm sure you're right, Steve, my qualm was in using 'the morris' as some kind of basic tradition for the melodeon, simply because any implication of 'Anglo-centrism' may not be appropriate to the OP's situation, or indeed to the context of a wider international political debate.  I'm not against morris tunes in any way, they're great, but please excuse me if I feel sometimes that we all forget this is actually an international forum.

But morris is also international 

[Theo]

Going back to the idea of Morris playing.  You should definitely listen to Frank Lee playing for Hexham Morris.

Frank is a superb Morris player, one of the best.  But his style is utterly unlike any other Morris player I've heard.   There are several examples of his playing on youtube. Here is one, not playing for Morris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF0oBDALnk8

[Chris Brimley]

Sure Lester, but others like their own traditions, don't they?

[baz parkes]

I feel I ought to say that a button accordion/melodeon is surely an interesting musical instrument in its own right across the world, and although no doubt it's useful in morris dancing, it would be somewhat restrictive to say it should just be regarded as related to 'the morris', which is a particularly English musical genre.

Chris - I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that the use of the melodeon in England is related solely to Morris. Yes - music for Morris is a particularly English genre, but the skills obtained by learning Morris tunes are useful for other English dance (non-morris) music and indeed for music from elsewhere in the world - Welsh, French-Canadian, Scandinavian, Australian, come immediately to mind.

This is probably contentious...but I think 99% of my favourite box players have played/do play for morris of one form or another.  The others live in Louisiana or Quebec. Or Mid Wales...

[Theo]

[[ADMIN]]

This is getting seriously off topic.  We are supposed to be be helping to develop push pull playing style. Any more helpful advice or is it time to close this topic?

[AirTime]

I just started learning to play the Halsway Scottische. This seems to be a great example of a tune which could go either way. I started playing on-the-row, then tried cross-rowing & now am experimenting with a mixture of both. Playing push/pull invariably accentuates the rhythm, but sometimes at the cost of "fluidity". It depends what you want to bring out in the tune. I do find that sticking to one approach exclusively, helps me in avoiding confusion, but spend enough time practicing & (as with everything) it all falls into place.

[Bob Ellis]

Over the years, I have heard some ideas repeated so often that they appear to have become proverbial in some quarters: e.g. "Morris and other English tunes are played mainly on the row; French music is played mainly across the rows". I am not sure how helpful or accurate such comments are. There is some truth in the view that it is easier to put 'bounce' into tunes when playing on the row and it is easier to get lyrical smoothness by playing across the rows. However, 'bouncy' tunes are not restricted to the English tradition: Derobée de Moncontour, Montée de Bâgé and Maclote de Habiémont (the first two French and the third one Belgian) are just three of many examples of European tunes that need to be played in a jaunty style that can be achieved by playing on the row. Conversely, there are Morris tunes that benefit from being played in a smooth lyrical cross-row style, e.g Valentine and Orange in Bloom. Therefore whether a particular tune, or a phrase within a tune, is played on the row or across the rows should surely be governed, at least in part, by the way we want to interpret the tune rather than by preconceptions.

I have always viewed 2-row and 3-row boxes as instruments that can be played in a variety of ways - neither primarily along the row nor across the row - but exploring the different options available for each tune (or phrase within a tune) and adopting the fingering pattern that is most effective in bringing out the interpretation of the tune that the player is seeking to achieve. Unless I am playing it on a one-row instrument, I would never predetermine that a new tune I am learning is to be played on the row or across the rows. I would explore all the opportunities available for that tune and decide which ones suit the tune best. Where I can find no discernible benefit to the sound for one fingering pattern over another, I would adopt the one that falls under my fingers most naturally.

There are many tunes that contain repeat phrases. Unlike many instruments, melodeons have the ability to play the repeats using different fingering patterns, so why not make full use of this ability? For instance, the second bar of Le Canal en Octobre is a repeat of the first bar, so I play the first bar on the G row with G and C basses and the second bar crossing the rows using Em and A basses, which adds life to the tune. Why restrict oneself to a single style of playing when melodeons offer us a choice of styles?

[Theo]

The start of this topic is quite the opposite of "restricting ourselves to one style of playing".  The original question was about how to widen the playing style from exclusively across row and how to approach adding more push/pull.

[Daddy Long Les]

The start of this topic is quite the opposite of "restricting ourselves to one style of playing".  The original question was about how to widen the playing style from exclusively across row and how to approach adding more push/pull.

Good point Theo.  I'm definitely guilty of not always reading the original post carefully enough before chipping in with my thoughts for which I apologise.  I would just say that having changed quite dramatically in the last few months from a mainly cross-row style to push/pull, I've probably gone too far the other way.  In other words, I'm probably making life harder for myself than it needs to be although, of course, some row crossing is unavoidable and in some cases, desirable. I'm gradually finding a balance between the two styles.

[playandteach]

The good news is that from such a low starting point, some rapid progress is inevitable (and I'm getting my head round the D row - although getting my head round it is different to getting my fingers and bellows arm round it). Another couple of questions:

1 Should I restrict myself to the lower octave to start with, or explore both ends from the start?
2 With the alterations I have (and intend to keep) should I be trying to play tunes in G on the G row, or where possible play them on the D row?
Thanks for the advice so far.

[Steve_freereeder]

The good news is that from such a low starting point, some rapid progress is inevitable (and I'm getting my head round the D row - although getting my head round it is different to getting my fingers and bellows arm round it). Another couple of questions:

1 Should I restrict myself to the lower octave to start with, or explore both ends from the start?
2 With the alterations I have (and intend to keep) should I be trying to play tunes in G on the G row, or where possible play them on the D row?
Thanks for the advice so far.

On a D/G box, generally people play tunes in G mostly on the G-row, apart from the cross-row on to the D-row for the low E, and based in the lower octave. The basses/chords tend to fit better, because the tunes are mostly push-based, and the G chord/bass is only available on the push. What modifications have you had done to your G-row and why?

The latest tune from Lester's collection of videos, Muffin Man, is a really good illustration of English-style melodeon playing, in G on the G-row.

[george garside]

the notion that DG 'on the row'  gives bounce  and across the rows provides 'fluidity' is not entirely correct  as a  skilled player can do either using either method.

george

[playandteach]

On a D/G box, generally people play tunes in G mostly on the G-row, apart from the cross-row on to the D-row for the low E, and based in the lower octave. The basses/chords tend to fit better, because the tunes are mostly push-based, and the G chord/bass is only available on the push. What modifications have you had done to your G-row and why?

I have had the D/E reversal in the middle octave - to avoid the duplication and to suit some of the tunes I like to play. I had an e-chat with Pascale from Naragonia about Dutch reversals when I was starting out, and it fitted my needs then (and now). I do like being able to play a descending minor scale all on the pull. Then a year or so ago I bit the bullet to copy the reversal (of course with added complications) in the upper octave. I have now switched the low octave to avoid the duplication as well, as I had never used the D on the inner row anyway. (it is possible I've got some just called out the wrong buttons as it's too late to pick up a box - but you get the drift).
I have no immediate intention to change - I like playing things like Flatworld B section without the bellows switch in the first 4 bars.

On an entirely different point, I do believe there's no point in seeking informed advice and ignoring it, so I went along to the Hexham Morris rehearsal tonight in Acomb. Met Frank Lee and a couple of other melodeon players (and, interestingly Julian Sutton's dad - though he's not a melodeon player). I enjoyed his playing, especially the lower harmony lines switching between the hands.
Frank's agreed to give me a few lessons. Though from what I see he's not a dyed in the wool push-puller.

[Thrupenny Bit]

good for you for taking the initiative and seeking out Frank.
Lovely chap, excellent player, a good move!
I'm sure you'll enjoy the learning process with Frank, and get a hint of what we've all been chatting about.
cheers
Q

[Steve_freereeder]

On a D/G box, generally people play tunes in G mostly on the G-row, apart from the cross-row on to the D-row for the low E, and based in the lower octave. The basses/chords tend to fit better, because the tunes are mostly push-based, and the G chord/bass is only available on the push. What modifications have you had done to your G-row and why?

I have had the D/E reversal in the middle octave - to avoid the duplication and to suit some of the tunes I like to play. I had an e-chat with Pascale from Naragonia about Dutch reversals when I was starting out, and it fitted my needs then (and now). I do like being able to play a descending minor scale all on the pull. Then a year or so ago I bit the bullet to copy the reversal (of course with added complications) in the upper octave. I have now switched the low octave to avoid the duplication as well, as I had never used the D on the inner row anyway. (it is possible I've got some just called out the wrong buttons as it's too late to pick up a box - but you get the drift).
I have no immediate intention to change - I like playing things like Flatworld B section without the bellows switch in the first 4 bars.

On an entirely different point, I do believe there's no point in seeking informed advice and ignoring it, so I went along to the Hexham Morris rehearsal tonight in Acomb. Met Frank Lee and a couple of other melodeon players (and, interestingly Julian Sutton's dad - though he's not a melodeon player). I enjoyed his playing, especially the lower harmony lines switching between the hands.
Frank's agreed to give me a few lessons. Though from what I see he's not a dyed in the wool push-puller.

Yes - the E/D Dutch reversal - I thought that would be what you've had done. It can be useful and I have it as an alternative on the half-row of my D/G Mory - the main G-row is as normal with D/E, so I have the best of both worlds.

You will have to decide whether to continue with the Dutch reversal and become really used to it (which could cause some consternation if you ever need to pick up a standard D/G box in a hurry). The Dutch reversal messes up the continuity of push/pull octave spacing on the G-row, and hence the ease of RH harmonies and countermelodies, as we discussed in my one-row workshop at Witney. Not impossible but certainly less consistent and intuitive. Is it really worth sacrificing that ease just so you can play Flatworld without bellows waggling in a couple of bars? Only you can decide what's right for you.

Going back to one of your earlier questions:

should I be trying to play tunes in G on the G row, or where possible play them on the D row?

Now that you have explained about the Dutch reversals, my advice would be to still try to become fluent on the G-row for tunes in the key of G, for reasons of 'on-the-row bounce' and congruence with the LH push G bass/chord when needed.

I'm glad you have met up with Frank Lee. He is a real gentleman and a fine player, and I'm sure you will learn a lot from him.

[playandteach]

Dutch reversal messes up the continuity of push/pull octave spacing on the G-row, and hence the ease of RH harmonies and countermelodies, as we discussed in my one-row workshop at Witney.

As I've got the reed switches in the other octaves too, the push / pull octave spacing keeps its pattern. Flatworld was just an example, and I meant that in the upper octave - which is not such a common issue on the DG box. I can't conceive me being in a position where I need to play someone else's box publicly.
Interesting to talk with Frank last night. He (I'll know more when I meet with him more closely) seems to think of the right hand as one keyboard rather than two rows. He also focuses on the harmony pattern before the melody orientation so working with him might be a more gentle dip into push/pull than I first thought.
He's suggested picking a tune that I want to work out with him, to see how he tackles learning a tune rather than him teaching me one.

I fancy the Jambe de Jean (Ed Rennie) that appeared on another thread here (although I've had to remove the ABC software from my laptop - so if anyone has the dots in pdf format I'd appreciate a link).

But I'd also like to tackle a reel or a hornpipe that he is not likely to have heard before (ideally in D, possibly in G). Doesn't have to be one of those, but a 4/4 piece with a fair amount of stepwise movement in a major key - and of course a nice tune.
So: Obscure; interesting; 4/4; major; mostly stepwise; - Any suggestions (ideally with dots) welcomed for the next leg of the journey.