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[Anahata]

Without wanting to stifle debate, what I'm keen to understand is when to push pull when there are equal cross row options,  [snip]

I'm tempted to suggest that the decisions you make for yourself at this point are part of what defines your personal playing style - versus just copying someone else's rules?

That's quite right, and it also remains a subject of continuous experimentation for me.

[gettabettabox]

[ ;)quote author=playandteach link=topic=19641.msg238308#msg238308 date=1479506960]
Ok. Let's take Jamie Allen in G. Can anybody be bothered to give me a note by note (literally every note) account of where they play what? I understand that personal style is the final arbiter, but I am always going to opt for cross row unless I start to gather a feel for what others do.
You really wouldn't understand how hard that tune is when you can't make a decision. Wear my shoes for that tune.
[/quote]

I've got you "Sussed" now, you're a secret semi-tone player...   

[george garside]

on a BC box the  A part of Jamie allen in G is  entirelyon the row. The B part is on the row exept for one note  (F#) !   

george

[Chris Brimley]

I'll certainly have a look at Jamie Allen (the same as Jimmy Allen?).  I don't play it yet.  Do you have a particular transcription of the tune, and accompaniment in mind?  Also, I'll be learning it on my DGAcc with 14 LH buttons.  What's the layout of the box you want to play it on?  Do you have third removal?  My first thought is that it's a fast reel, and therefore selecting good fingerings is going to be important to do it justice.

[playandteach]

Thanks for the music editor link.

[playandteach]

I'll certainly have a look at Jamie Allen (the same as JimJimmy en?).  I don't play it yet.  Do you have a particular transcription of the tune, and accompaniment in mind?  Also, I'll be learning it on my DGAcc with 14 LH buttons.  What's the layout of the box you want to play it on?  Do you have third removal?  My first thought is that it's a fast reel, and therefore selecting good fingerings is going to be important to do it justice.

Thanks.
Box set up is 8 basses 3rds are removable.  2 row 3rd button start. Accidentals. I do have the Dutch reversal but let me worry about that. Any version version of Jamie - Jimmy  Allen is fine. I do think that getting a few people to share with me their precise and detailed choices on the melody push pull will be extremely useful. I don't want to exclude semitone players but that's not going to be as helpful and I not considering changing systems.
The danger here is that those who play it entirely on the row have the easier post as others have to spend a fair bit of time to find a way of telling me how they play it. Therefore we might get a biased response. My next post will be a code for notating the melody. Thanks

[george garside]

Jamie allen is on Lesters tune a day and is a good starting point for getting the hang of the tune.  It can be played in various ways  eg  as a  4/4 march at a steady speed   with a   strong rhythm  or faster and smoother as a reel.  It is often played as a set with Salmon Tails and Winster Gallop . As with all 'dance' tunes  rhythm is   vitally  important ,and takes precedence over  fancy bass harmony!

george

[playandteach]

Let's tighten this up. Imagine it is paired with Salmon Tails if you like, and is played for dancing. Steady tempo what does crotchet = 168 sound like?

A SECTION
G A |B  G  G  A | B    G  A B|C  A  A  B  |C    B  A  |G  G  G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A  |G   

B SECTION
B A |G  G  G  F#  |E  D  C  B  |A  A  A  G  |F#  D  E  F#  |G   A G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A |G

OK. Imagine all the capitals are PUSH notes. (Bold just there to show octave leaps)
If you change a letter to lower case, then I’ll know that you pull those notes instead.
So upper case is PUSH
Lower case is pull.
Therefore no need to say which row. Help genuinely sought, gratefully received. £1 donation to melnet for every version. If someone else posts what you do, please just say "I do it Geoff's way" (no donation for that - just in case it becomes a runaway train, sorry).

[Anahata]

I don't see any compelling reason to play Jimmy Allen in any other way than entirely on the G row.
If I'm feeling lazy in the left arm I might use the B on the D row for the final four notes cBA | G.

[george garside]

Let's tighten this up. Imagine it is paired with Salmon Tails if you like, and is played for dancing. Steady tempo what does crotchet = 168 sound like?

A SECTION
G A |B  G  G  A | B    G  A B|C  A  A  B  |C    B  A  |G  G  G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A  |G   

B SECTION
B A |G  G  G  F#  |E  D  C  B  |A  A  A  G  |F#  D  E  F#  |G   A G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A |G

OK. Imagine all the capitals are PUSH notes. (Bold just there to show octave leaps)
If you change a letter to lower case, then I’ll know that you pull those notes instead.
So upper case is PUSH
Lower case is pull.
Therefore no need to say which row. Help genuinely sought, gratefully received. £1 donation to melnet for every version. If someone else posts what you do, please just say "I do it Geoff's way" (no donation for that - just in case it becomes a runaway train, sorry).

[Lester]

A SECTION
G a |B  G  G  a | B    G  a B|c a a  B  |c    B  a  |G  G  G  e  |D    B  B c |D  D  c B a  |G   

B SECTION
B a |G  G  G  f#  |e  D  c  B  |a  a  a  G  |F#  D  e  f#  |G   a G  e  |D    B  B c |D  D  c B a |G

That's how I play it, all on the G row

http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/tune-227-jimmy-allen.html

[george garside]

Let's tighten this up. Imagine it is paired with Salmon Tails if you like, and is played for dancing. Steady tempo what does crotchet = 168 sound like?

A SECTION
G A |B  G  G  A | B    G  A B|C  A  A  B  |C    B  A  |G  G  G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A  |G   

B SECTION
B A |G  G  G  F#  |E  D  C  B  |A  A  A  G  |F#  D  E  F#  |G   A G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A |G

OK. Imagine all the capitals are PUSH notes. (Bold just there to show octave leaps)
If you change a letter to lower case, then I’ll know that you pull those notes instead.
So upper case is PUSH
Lower case is pull.
Therefore no need to say which row. Help genuinely sought, gratefully received. £1 donation to melnet for every version. If someone else posts what you do, please just say "I do it Geoff's way" (no donation for that - just in case it becomes a runaway train, sorry).

this sounds like a very over complicated way of getting the hang of a very simple straightforward  tune.  Why not just try to play along with Lesters version for starters and then  when you have the right notes in the right order listen carefully to what you are playing  and try to add some rhythm and bounce until it 'feels' danceable to! 

george

[Thrupenny Bit]

I've just sat down after trying a new tune and this thread has come to mind.
The tune is an utterly bonkers one from Nigel Chippendale's tune book, and typically takes you to every corner of the melodeon keyboard in a finger twisting relish. It will take me years to get fluid, if at all, but is just fun and makes me smile while attempting to get round it. It just appeals to me.

It was written complete with chords by Nigel.
It is 'tight' by which I mean to play the tune as he wrote it there is little room for personal interpretation regarding which chords to use as he has given these.
Therefore, the chords dictate bellows direction and by default whether to push or pull to play the note and accommodate playing the chord required.
I realise this is unusual as we tend to find tunes with a melody only and you sort the accompniament.
My point being, at times the tune dictates whether to push/pull and whether to play along a row or across row.
Just a thought.
Q

Sorry to take you away from Jimmy Allen!

[Mike Carney]

Let's tighten this up. Imagine it is paired with Salmon Tails if you like, and is played for dancing. Steady tempo what does crotchet = 168 sound like?

A SECTION
G A |B  G  G  A | B    G  A B|C  A  A  B  |C    B  A  |G  G  G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A  |G   

B SECTION
B A |G  G  G  F#  |E  D  C  B  |A  A  A  G  |F#  D  E  F#  |G   A G  E  |D    B  B C |D  D  C B A |G

OK. Imagine all the capitals are PUSH notes. (Bold just there to show octave leaps)
If you change a letter to lower case, then I’ll know that you pull those notes instead.
So upper case is PUSH
Lower case is pull.
Therefore no need to say which row. Help genuinely sought, gratefully received. £1 donation to melnet for every version. If someone else posts what you do, please just say "I do it Geoff's way" (no donation for that - just in case it becomes a runaway train, sorry).

Hi playandteach
I understand what you are doing with your notation system but can I just throw in that an easier way for me is the system that Hazel Askew used in a workshop, which is just to indicate which row to choose, rather than the note name or push/pull. If you use this system it means you have to choose the 'right' direction to push or pull in order to get the note... I really recommend it.

For me, having looked at what I play, it is all on the G row apart from the B in the last  but one bar at the end of the A part and B part, which are identical sections. I tuck my finger under and play a pull B note on the D row. This helps to go with the pull D chord that I am using.
M

[Steve_freereeder]

A SECTION
G a |B  G  G  a | B    G  a B|c a a  B  |c    B  a  |G  G  G  e  |D    B  B c |D  D  c B a  |G   

B SECTION
B a |G  G  G  f#  |e  D  c  B  |a  a  a  G  |F#  D  e  f#  |G   a G  e  |D    B  B c |D  D  c B a |G

That's how I play it, all on the G row

http://lesters-tune-a-day.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/tune-227-jimmy-allen.html

Lester's version, notated as above, is spot on, and just what P&T was asking for. No more, no less.

[Chris Brimley]

p&t, did you want to specify which chord accompaniment you wanted?  I think there's some shown for this tune in an old EFDSS dance manual, which I'll dig out and try to use, if not.

[playandteach]

I've just sat down after trying a new tune and this thread has come to mind.
The tune is an utterly bonkers one from Nigel Chippendale's tune book, and typically takes you to every corner of the melodeon keyboard in a finger twisting relish. Therefore, the chords dictate bellows direction and by default whether to push or pull to play the note and accommodate playing the chord required.
I realise this is unusual as we tend to find tunes with a melody only and you sort the accompniament.

1 What's the tune you were talking about, and where can I find it?
2 I realise that Jimmy Allen was probably too obvious a choice for being on the row
3 From my standpoint, the chords are the driving force, I realise that for many the melody dictates the chords, for me I'd want to have the best chords and make the melody fit
4 I can start to see why the Dutch reversal is a compromise of the normal layout - but it does help with quite a lot of the things I like to play - jury's out.
5 Please read number one again (I'm tune hungry)

[boxer]

I've come late to this discussion but for what its worth, in respect of the original question, my own experience is that the best way to decide how to play a particular passage or indeed a whole tune, is to explore every possible permutation of key sequences and fingering groups, and select the one(s) that work(s) best in the context of sustaining and reinforcing the tune's intended rhythm.

For all that, sooner or later, there comes a section that can only be executed in one way, usually the way that's most unsympathetic to what I'm trying to do with the tune.  That's when really basic box-playing skills are called upon.

 

[Julian S]

I'm with Mike C. Just a pull B on the last but one bar. On my 2plus 4 box, I could play it all on the pull, or on the push if I wanted exercise in bellows control...or if I was masochistic. But that really does detract from what is a dance rhythm. That's generally my first thought.
J

PS thanks for the very welcome relief from a morning spent wrestling with a Basque and a Burgundian carol, followed with the fun of Jiggery Pokerwork in a set with Jump at the Sun ( when to push and pull on those? !)

[Thrupenny Bit]

P&t:
The tune is called ' 11 St. Martins street' from a book called 'Chppendales Cheery chunes' by Nigel Chippendale who sadly is no longer with us. It was published after his death in the early 90's when I purchased it.

In some ways, the tune doesn't matter, I was trying to make the point that sometimes if a tune is written with chords then that solves the cross row vs push pull question.
Like you, the chords are the driving force for me, so looking at a new melody only tune, I start by trying to sort out the accompniament and take it from there, modifying it as I become more acquainted with the tune. I don't worry about if I'm cross rowing or push pulling.
But that is just me.... We all go at it from a different angle.
Q