Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: 4th Button Doh  (Read 4955 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mike delta

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
4th Button Doh
« on: December 23, 2007, 11:02:30 PM »

Hello,
I am considering purchasing a new D/G (11 & 10 button configuration) but seriously thinking in terms of a 4th button start note. As I am relatively inexperienced I am unsure of the note layout I should pursue.
My gut instinct is to opt for 2 low note buttons below the start note of each row and one accidental button below the start note of each row. One thing for sure, I want a B note below the start note on the G row. I am however unsure of the other notes to choose in terms of usefulness. Your input would be most welcome.

My other uncertainty is this: If I am to lose a button of the end of the each row at the top end (to facilitate the 4th button start), is it just a case of losing what is already there or would it be better to opt for different notes at the top end of the rows. Again your input would be welcome.

BTW, I have looked at various layouts but the majority of 4th button start notes tend to be 12 & 11 button configurations whereas I am considering the 11 & 10 setup.

Many thanks,
Mike Delta.
Logged

EeeJay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
  • Old Grey Paolo
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2007, 11:48:03 PM »

Having started D/G on a 4th note start 21 key box - albiet without accidentals initially - ('twas what they had on the shelf in the shop!), I'm not aware that the lack of notes up the "dusty end" was much of a problem... the smaller Baffetti boxes cut things right down to 19 buttons, and the folks who play them don't seem to be much bothered either...

4th button start shunts the range of the D/G (which is a generally "trebley" system) into a slightly more usable register. Low G and low C are very useful. And, with care, can be preserved, even if you opt for two buttons of accidentals. For a start (here's a trick to use even on 3rd start boxes)... on the G row... replace the D below G with a B... even this one note makes such a difference!

The only thing I found a little awkward on 4th start (compared to my subsequent experience with 3rd start boxes) is the stretch down to the mid range accidentals (on the bottom buttons). This shouldn't be such a problem on smaller geomety boxes like the Castagnari Tommy, but feels a bit clumsy on larger keyboards (that said, this isn't a problem on 2 1/2 row boxes, where the low range accidentals sit down the bottom of the rows...).

Based on my mixed experience, I had thought about low notes on the bottom pair, then the accidentals, then the rest of the set-up... I'm possibly ordering/re-jigging such a box in 2008...

Ed J
Logged

pipives

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 242
    • Pip Ives
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2007, 10:41:07 AM »

I play a 4th button start 21 button hohner Erica D/G, Setup by Theo, I absoluteley love it. I have a custom set up of low notes and accidentals on this. (see attatchment). I have the standard accidentals at the top. Then the standard low notes on the 2nd buttons, other than the low F natural.

I decided to have this put there as I used to play in F major and C major quite a lot on this box and found having the whole scale of F quite handy. I don't need the low C natural as the whole scale of C major starts oon the 5th button and uses only the higher F natural (although it would be handy to have the lower C).

This sort of layout basically makes the rest of the box (from 4th butoon doh on) the same as something like a standard 19 button baffetti, which my girlfriend owns, and there isn't a problem if you do need to play in the top octave, you just have to cross to the D row for the top note.

Logged
Faversham, Kent

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7905
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2007, 10:56:07 AM »

I had my Tommy modded for a 4th button start and really like it. I have the standard low notes and accidentals but my one contribution to the discussion may be the reversal of the highest button on the D row which I never use whilst playing in D gives a pull F# which I do use when playing in G.

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11227
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 11:03:35 AM »

I've not yet altered my D/G to 4th button doh, (been meaning to for a year or two). I have a similar layout to Pip's but with the first button on the D row changed from F#/A to G/A.   I never found the low F# particularly important, but the G (which is low fiddle G) is invaluable.   I think of the low G/A button as an extension of the G row.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

mike delta

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 01:03:37 PM »

Hello,
Thanks for the opinions on 4th button doh and associated button layouts.
I'm part way there now.

Accidentals: Ist button G  row F/Eb (above middle 'C').

Ditto.........: 1st button D row G#/Bb (above middle 'C').

Low Notes G row: (b2) ?/?. (b3) D/F#. (b4) start.

Low Notes D row: (b2) ?/?. (b3) A/C#. (b4) start.

Still unsure about button 2 on each row or indeed once chosen in what order on pull/push. I do however want (fairly certain anyhow) a low 'G' and also a 'B'. Not sure about a low 'C' but I'm assuming it would be a useful addition. So I'm nearly there now but unclear about push/pull preferences and and which goes where on each row ??? ??? ??? ???

Further help would be gratefully received :-*

Mike Delta.



Logged

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4795
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2007, 08:06:30 PM »

 my choice would be
on G row 2nd button B/E  1st button standard accidentals

on D row  2nd button F#B  1st button standard accidentals.

This is the same set up as used on most semitone boxes and has the  advantage of maintaining the consistanace of same note occuring  4 buttons apart on push & 5 on pull throughout the box.  This  is particularly useful for  playing 2 of the same note an octave apart.

the top (musically) button on each row has the  reeds removed and everything else is moved up one to creat a blank space on the second button for the addition of the above notes.

As far a reaching the accidentals is concerned I always use the thumb for this as thumbs are very good at moving sideways long distances.  Probably best /easiest done using 2 shoulder straps.

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

mike delta

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2007, 08:24:26 PM »

Hello George,
You wrote:  my choice would be
on G row 2nd button B/E  1st button standard accidentals
on D row  2nd button F#B  1st button standard accidentals.


So it would look as this?
First button 'G' row "accidentals". 2nd button B/E. 3rd button D/F#. 4th button start.
First button 'D' row "accidentals". 2nd button F#/B. 3rd button A/C#. 4th button start.
Forgive my lack of experience but wouldn't F# low notes on both rows & B low notes on both rows be a waste?  Please bear in mind that I am relatively inexperienced and I may be missing the obvious here.
Regards,
Mike.
Logged

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4795
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 09:06:33 PM »

it all depends how you play the thing!  As i also play bc it gives exactly the same low note fingering  and more importantly keeps symetry of the same note occuring 4 notes apart on push & 5 apart on pull throughout the keyboard.  The duplicated notes are in different bellows direction on each row which can also be useful! Having said that its everybody to his/her own!

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11227
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 10:05:46 AM »

So it would look as this?
First button 'G' row "accidentals". 2nd button B/E. 3rd button D/F#. 4th button start.
First button 'D' row "accidentals". 2nd button F#/B. 3rd button A/C#. 4th button start.
Forgive my lack of experience but wouldn't F# low notes on both rows & B low notes on both rows be a waste?  Please bear in mind that I am relatively inexperienced and I may be missing the obvious here.
Regards,
Mike.

Another difference is that the F# on the D row, button 2,  is usually an octave lower than the F# on the G row, button 3.

For me it makes more sense to have the low F# push on the D row tuned up a semitone to G.

Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Ellison

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 345
    • A few tunes here:
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2007, 11:02:11 AM »

Theo - F# tuned up to G?

Hmmmmm, interesting - I'm thinking about it . . .
Martin
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11227
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 11:24:52 AM »

Theo - F# tuned up to G?

Hmmmmm, interesting - I'm thinking about it . . .
Martin

Then think about that button as as an extra low button on the G row.  Its fiddle low G so crops up in a fair number of tunes - more than F# does.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Doug Anderson

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
  • aka Veloce
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2007, 04:58:03 PM »

I looked at a lot of different low note arrangements when I was thinking about a new D/G melodeon. This one seemed like the best compromise for the tunes I play.
(push/pull)
G Row:     (  /  ) (B /C ) (D /F#) (G /A ) (B /C )...
D Row: (  /  ) (G /B ) (A /C#) (D /E ) (F#/G )...

That design exercise was put on hold when I decided to buy a G/C melodeon first. The only change from the standard bottom end of the range I made on the G/C was to replace the redundant push G on the C row with an A to match the reversed G and A reeds in the fifth button of the C row (which is a different discussion topic altogether).

C Row:     (  /  ) (A /B ) (C /D ) (E /F )...
G Row: (  /  ) (D /F#) (G /A ) (B /C )...

I left the first button blank too, because the accidentals are yet another discussion topic,
Logged

mike delta

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
Re: 4th Button Doh
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2008, 12:59:06 AM »

Thanx for the opinions on button layout.
I have had a re think and taken a few ideas from you all.
Do you think the following would be a practical option:Seems ok theoretically at least. Not sure about the practicalities:

G row: Button 1 accidentals. Button 2 B/C. Button 3 D/F#. Button 4 G/A.

D row: Button 1 accidentals. Button 2 F#/G. Button 3 A/C#. Button 4 D/E

Opinions appreciated.
Mike.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.