Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: British chromatic diatonic instrument.  (Read 3085 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« on: December 20, 2016, 10:37:05 AM »

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122265216053

Anybody know anything about this sort of thing? The seller's description is...a personal take on reality  (:)

Greg
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 11:03:20 AM »

Probably an early C/C# instrument. The description isn't inaccurate... merely incomplete.

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2016, 11:35:39 AM »

I would put it much later than 1880, maybe 1920's and not particulary hish quality  as mass produced in Saxony. And yes, probably CC#

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

triskel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3290
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2016, 12:13:03 PM »

I would put it much later than 1880, maybe 1920's and not particulary high quality  as mass produced in Saxony. And yes, probably CC#

I'd agree with you George, both on stylistic grounds and that Viceroy was a brand name of Rose, Morris & Co., Ltd. - a firm that was only founded in October 1920.

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 3769
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2016, 03:27:58 PM »

Also brass reeds on long plates. I've had one which I gave too much money for (£18) and it ended up stripped for a few bits and bobs.
Logged
At last, broken and resigned to accept conformity.
Oh, how I LOVE Big Brother!

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4929
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2016, 06:31:35 PM »

Glad I didn't put an offer in :-)
Still find it odd for a box to be described as chromatic and diatonic. Suppose it does have two diatonic key sets. I didn't realise that playing a different notes on pull and push made it diatonic. I don't remember hearing any instruments described like this before.
Logged
Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2016, 07:06:34 PM »

its not the 2 notes per button that attracts the title 'diatonic' but the fact that each row contains the diatonic scale of one key i.e. each row contains the right notes for a particular key eg G or D but not all the notes required to play a full scale in any other key.

A chromatic instrument has the wherewithal to play in all 12 major keys

A 2 or 3 row semitone box  eg BC  CC#  BCC# is both diatonic   in that each row contains the wherewithal for particular key BC.CC# or BCC#  and also chromatic in that using notes from both or all 3 rows  provides the wherewithal for 12 major keys.

Chromatic means simply able to play in 12 major keys so a box either will or it won't. There is no such thing as a partialy chromatic instrument

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

deltasalmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2016, 07:45:58 PM »

Chromatic means simply able to play in 12 major keys so a box either will or it won't. There is no such thing as a partialy chromatic instrument

Well said
Logged
Sean McGinnis
Bordentown City, NJ, USA

Castagnari Benny ADG

Andrius

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 180
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2016, 08:49:25 PM »

Words 'diatonic' and 'chromatic' often are used in meaning, different from musical theory when speaking about squeeze boxes.
'Diatonic' describes all instruments with two different sounds on the same button different directions, and 'chromatic' describes instruments with the same sound both directions. 'Bisonic' and 'unisonic' is more better, but not popular. Sometimes it looks funny. Both bandoneons, 'chromatic' and 'diatonic' can play full chromatic scale, only in different fingering. Lot of 'chromatic' Russian button accordions ("Garmoshka") are diatonic instruments with 3 acc buttons. There is "diatonic" accordion with "chromatic" basses:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/201754389424
So you always must decide what meaning of "chromatic" was used.
Logged
Koch Bb/Eb 12b 3v : Koch A/D 8b 2v : Koch C/F 12b 2v : Hohner Erica C/F 8b 2v : Hohner Erika C/F 2.4 row 8b 2v : Hohner early pre-Corona F/Bb/Eb 12b 2v: Hohner Liliput 2.4 row Bb/Eb 8b 2v : Hohner Club III BS C/F 2.7 row 8b 3v : Galotta D/G 8b 2v : Meinel & Herold G/C/F 16b 2v : Unkn G/C 8b 2v : Petersburg accordion F/Bb/Eb 16b 3v: Petersburg accordion G/C/F 16b 2v : Bandoneon Alfred Arnold 128 tone 2v : Bandoneon Wilhelm König 144 tone 2 v

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 10:15:07 PM »

The continental chromatic (CBA) in 3,4 or 5 row forms is chromatic but not diatonic. The 3 row British Chromatic is both chromatic and diatonic as are 2 row semitone boxes although the latter are not easy to play in 12 keys. 

4th apart 2 or 3 row boxes are diatonic but not chromatic so would always be refered to as diatonic.

On the other hand it is quite correct to refer to semitone 2 or 3 row boxes as chromatic accordions even though they are also diatonic.

Not that Ive ever seen one but a piano acordion keyboard with only the white keys  could also legitimately be  'diatonic' whilst the normal keyboard with black and white keys is undoubtedly chromatic.

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

Malcolm Clapp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1095
  • Loving my Hohner-reeded wet MMM CastaTommy
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 12:37:55 AM »


 There is no such thing as a partially chromatic instrument

george

Depends on context....

Surely a smaller Club system could justifiably be described as "partially chromatic" in that it is chromatic only over part of it's range, at least on the treble side. In fact a 21 key melodeon with accidentals too....

Rarely played too far out of the home keys admittedly, but not impossible.

(Pedantic reply to a pedantic statement; no offence.)

Logged
Tuner/repairer, now retired, but still playing! Happy to offer advice on repairs etc., and might be persuaded to undertake the odd emergency job for local and longtime  customers. Selling a few melodeons from my collection currently....

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 08:07:17 AM »

And any two row with standard accidentals is also chromatic over part of its range.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 08:09:09 AM »

And the small two row Russian Garmoshka plays the same note in and out, but is truly diatonic.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Chris Brimley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2019
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2016, 09:52:51 AM »

It's always struck me that the two terms 'diatonic' and 'chromatic' have rather outlived their usefulness when used as descriptions of button accordions. They frequently seem to generate this sort of discussion.  'Semitone', 'quint' (or maybe 'fourth apart'), 'garmoshka', and 'Continental' would perhaps be better ways of classifying the design concepts, wouldn't they?
Logged

Chris Ryall

  • "doc 3-row"
  • French Interpreter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10171
  • Wirral UK
    • Chris Ryall
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 10:10:01 AM »

Words 'diatonic' and 'chromatic' often are used in meaning, different from musical theory when speaking about squeeze boxes.

no No NO!  'Diatonic' is a very specific term referring to the standard western major scale and its 7 modes. And rows laid out that way

That is to say (with 6 tones per octave) it is a 7 note scale with intervals TT½TTT½. The classic example of this is the 'white note' C scale on piano, but we can base it on any of the 12 possible start notes.   The vast majority of Western music is founded on these intervals, main exception being blues scale with a note 2xT from tonic. There are others eg Georgian music where e the 3rd is 'about halfway' between T and 5th (so neither E not Eb in C).

Virtually all other scales we use are either modes (Dorian = C scale, start on D note), subsets (pentatonic = miss 2 notes out), or variants (harmonic = play B rather than Bb in Cm) of this.

That is what makes a row based on diatonic intervals/scale so powerful. Provided we are playing in its home scales. To cover all of them you'd need 6 2-row boxes, and I understand there are people who carry this much kit - definitely so in mouth organ circles?

Chromatic? Well it is the ability to play all scales in all 12 keys. While a couple of accidentals on a D/G makes this 'possible' - in practice it ain't easy, wrong basses and sometimes wrong octave Eb for example  :(

I play a 3 row with C#, D and G rows and it makes play 'possible' in all 12 keys over 2+ octaves. But mostly I play in D , G, and their diatonic modes.  So 'diatonic' mean the same in theory and in layout.

Analogy - a 'diatonic' piano would have only white keys. Famously Miles Davis, who adored 'lydian' mode would 'base that on 'a middle F'. There's a lot more to diatonic than Baa Baa, Black Sheep ;)
Logged
  _       _    _      _ 

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 10:39:01 AM »

thank you Chris for that lucid explanation

george ;D
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1117
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2016, 11:55:14 AM »

I think because most push-pull boxes are diatonic people sometimes become confused and think that "diatonic" refers to their push-pull nature rather than what they are capable of playing.

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 01:14:48 PM »

Indeed!
george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: British chromatic diatonic instrument.
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 01:33:46 PM »

Second time that point has been made in this topic so time to close it.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal