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[Peter Savage]

Happy Christmas to all!

Just spending a few spare minutes finishing a layout for a D/G box that I need to have some work done on.

B-flat/G-sharp button - most of my boxes have the B-Flat on the pull and the G-Sharp on the push.  However, I am aware of several players who have things the other way around.

Can someone explain to me what I would gain/lose by switching to B-Flat on the push and G-Sharp on the pull?

Many thanks,

Pete

[Rob2Hook]

Whichever way you have them, it will make certain items from your repertoire either more or less difficult and very occasionally impossible (e.g. the sdiscordant pair in the Pteradactyl Two-step/Sleepy Dragon).  Just for the record most German built boxes have the Bb pull n the reversal used to be common on Castagnaris but last time I found they seem to use the German standard on their lower end boxes - perhaps as they are seen to be in competition with the likes of the Pokerwork?

Rob.

[Peter Savage]

Thanks Rob.  I've always had Bb on the pull for the sake of Jiggery Pokwerwork, as it makes it much easier.  But is that a good reason?

[Theo]

Yes.  The only reason is to aid your own repertoire. 

[Malcolm Clapp]

Thanks Rob.  I've always had Bb on the pull for the sake of Jiggery Pokwerwork, as it makes it much easier. 

Ditto, but for Jump at the Sun.

[benammiswift]

I have my Bb on the pull but my other accidental is reversed grom standard. This can be somewhat limiting but it suits me. As Theo says it's down to repertoire but you get a few different options for chords such as a push G minor and an E major chord. I have considered flipping my accidental numerous times but my whole repertoire would need to be sifted and sorted so if you're going to change it do it ASAP. I think the way the accidentals are is drawn from the semitone layout and what direction they would be on that but that could just be a coincidence. I know quite a few players who play Castagnari have it that way and that's probably because that's how it was as standard when they bought the box and they just learnt to play it.

Hope this has given food for thought

[folkloristmark]

just put in on a leather bed so you can whip it out and reverse it as you feel perhaps in the middle off a set if you get quick.Or get two almost identical boxes.Merry christmas happy new year

[Thrupenny Bit]

I have the standard Castagnari layout ( well the one on both my boxes! ) with push Bb and pull G#
I tend not to play chords on my right hand so use them as accidentals within the tunes, which I do quite a bit in the tunes I play. It's what I am used to playing so it would be odd if they were the other way round for me.
 
More importantly for me, the other accidental has a push Eb (D# ) which I do use a lot against a push B bass and chord which goes well.
Q.

[Bob Ellis]

My two row boxes have G sharp on the push and B flat on the pull, whereas my 2.6 and three-row boxes have the B flats on the push and the G sharps on the pull. Both systems work reasonably well. However, the advantage for me of having the B flat on the pull is that the E flat is on the push. In many situations, B flat and E flat are interchangeable, so I prefer to have one in each direction. With an 8-bass system, it is difficult to find bass harmonies for G sharp, in whichever direction it occurs.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Doesn't this question evolve around the style in which you play?
I.e. If you play a lot of chords on the right hand, then the accidental needs to be in the position to allow you to play chords in the keys you most use.
If, like me, you use the accidentals as melody notes in the tune, then it doesn't matter so much as you learn to lay what you've go on the box. What is an awkward direction in one tune will flow in another.
Q

[Anahata]

I have boxes with both accidental arrangements in regular use, and if I ever decide to get one changed to match the other, it will be Bb push and G# pull. The main deciding factor (for me) is being able to get the G# over an E bass.

[benammiswift]

Good point Anahata. However I seem to remember Pete's draft Handry layout having a reverse E minor so that may negate that being a factor as you have an E bass in both directions then. Just a thought, I can't remember the draft right now.

Benammi

[Peter Savage]

Good point Anahata. However I seem to remember Pete's draft Handry layout having a reverse E minor so that may negate that being a factor as you have an E bass in both directions then. Just a thought, I can't remember the draft right now.

Benammi

Yes, that's right, I have a reverse E-minor.  I am leaning towards keeping the Bb on the pull as that's what I am used to.  But it's one of those things...if you've never had it then you're not sure what you're missing!

[squeezy]

This question comes up pretty regularly and I think it's one that the answer really is 'six of one and half a dozen of the other' ... and yes what you finally decide inn is down to repertoire and personal preference.

I think it's less of a decision based on playing right hand chords vs chromatic tunes and more about which keys you're likely to be using those accidentals in.  For example if the Bb is going to be used for passages in G minor then it is effectively replacing the push B on the G row from the major scale - that means there's less mental gymnastics to do if it is on the push for bellows direction purposes.  However if you're using it for chromatic runs in E minor for tunes like Jiggery Pokerwork (sorry!) ... then it's effectively replacing the pull B on the D row and a pulled Bb is more convenient to play.

The same reasoning can be applied to the G# which can be thought of as replacing the pulled G on the D row in the case of tunes in A and E (see earlier replies about playing an A major chord) or it can be thought of as replacing the push G on the G row in chromatic runs. However it has to be the opposite way to the Bb do you have to consider both!

That thinking process would lead me to encourage someone beginning to learn the box to get the pulled Bb if they're going to play mainly within the home keys of the box (G,D,Em) but get the push Bb if they're thinking of playing outside those keys (Gm, A) ... But in the case of someone who already plays, I'd say stick with what you're used to unless you're absolutely sure you want the opposite!

Wassail!

[Chris Ryall]

Doesn't this question evolve around the style in which you play?  I.e. If you play a lot of chords on the right hand, then the accidental needs to be in the position to allow you to play chords in the keys you most use. If, like me, you use the accidentals as melody notes in the tune, then it doesn't matter so much as you learn to lay what you've go on the box. What is an awkward direction in one tune will flow in another.  Q

Very much so. eg If you like a 'blues' feel in arrangement then Bb should be a pull note, allowing cool E-G-A/Bb/B-D* runs trivially in your main minor key.  D reversed too if you have a helper row, but a flick on the D/E button works fine, even on 2 rows. 

I've managed to make the F/Eb work both ways in my time and cannot remember how it is on my Lily (it's out on loan).  I think it ended up on Eb push, acting as lead note in E harmonic minor against B 'dominant' triad.

As Benjamini says above - having some reversed bass notes solves a load of problems. Arguably of more use than a helper row if you tend to play in standard keys