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Author Topic: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?  (Read 4524 times)

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Huw Adamson

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Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« on: January 22, 2017, 11:46:52 PM »

I was wondering on your thoughts on isomorphic layouts, as melodeon players. Ya see, I play a D/G, and play it for the most part up and down the rows, playing English folk music, meaning whatever I can play in D, I can pretty much play the same in G. This has shaped how I think of music as a whole, and my brain thinks far more diatonically than chromatically. As such, I have always liked the idea of isomorphic keyboards, particularly not having to learn different layouts to play in different keys.
Thoughts? If any of you were choosing between CBA and piano accordion perhaps, which would you rather choose?



(Isomorphic wiki, for reference.)
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphic_keyboard
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2017, 11:53:41 PM »

Part of the difficulty is in imagining starting from scratch. I actually find the sideways piano far less ergonomic than the piano - so that would be a reason for me to consider CBA, but then I do have some keyboard (in the traditional sense) experience.
Of course I've already wrecked your parallel one rows, as I have all the D/E reversals (all octaves) so I'm not keen to have every key feel the same way. Then again I have seriously limited home keys on the melodeon.
But if we could just start again...what could we dream up.
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Jack Campin

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2017, 02:04:41 AM »

Do you know about the Atzarin layout?  It's intended to be a bisonoric equivalent of the CBA.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2017, 09:35:06 AM »

There is quite a nice discussion on this on Pignol/Milleret's Aire et Geste CD when they are inteviewed about how their music, and layout has developed. Stef even confesses to his days doing rustic Morvan dancing!

Basically I believe that the more you do straighforward diatonic stuff, especially folk, but eg most Beatles and a lot of more recent pop is in there - the better the straighforward diatonic keyboard suits you.  There are the 7 modes of course (4-5 used in folk) and that's why you fing your bass end 'wrong' for some tunes, but that's not the topic. The classic French B major chord and a D# accidental take care of a load more European/ Klesmer folk music, as long as you play in the home minor. Beyond that … challenging ;)

So I like the 2 diatonic rows and 8 basses as my core. It means I can go into any session in this island and join in, perhaps chording at first, but commonly joining tune 2-3rd time through. It is a nice comfort zone. It's economical. It isn't bulky, or heavy.

Problems come when you start to improvise, mix in a bit of blues, to play "out", and that's perhaps why the British scene doesn't do this much? For me, and the Grenoble pair this has been via the helper row or half row. But its very idiosyncratic, different fingering in each key, you have to learn 4-5 different blues scales. OK, basically pentatonic, but the note runs can be in pretty weird places.

Isomorphic layouts are great for this sort of thing. The price is that you have to learn where the diatonic scales run, they don't lie under the fingers like a melodeon home key. But once learned, you have all 12 keys on a levered 5 row layout. Even on the (same notes, less buttons) 4 or 3 row there are many less variations. 

So "knowing where I was headed" I think I'd buy a CBA or similar, maybe the compact 3 liner, and invest in some scales practice. But that isn't our trajectory is it?  We all (like Stéphane in his smock) started where we started, commonly in the deeply diatonic occidental folk traditions where blue notes can be frowned on, and harmonic minor "a mystery". 

Personally, exploring "other music" in my late 30s I found it very difficult to "unlearn" this, and I was still bedded in my local sessions, anyway.  So that's my reasons for ignoring logic :|glug
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squeezy

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2017, 10:19:09 AM »

My take on it is that the original poster's comment "This has shaped how I think of music as a whole, and my brain thinks far more diatonically than chromatically." is a very important one and definitely what I reckon is what happens to most people who's main (first?) instrument is the melodeon regardless of whether they play up and down the rows or row cross from day one.  The instrument places much more importance on the notes within the home diatonic scales and forces us to work within that constraint.  Our use of the word "accidentals" to describe the other notes that lie outside the home keys on instruments that have them is further proof of that.

Two row melodeon is not an isomorphic keyboard on either hand due to the relationship between the rows.  Three-row melodeon is less so.  If you consider the undeniably popular piano keyboard to have 2 rows (black and white) then it is completely non-isomorphic as all 12 major keys require a different fingering.  Only the 5 row chromatic can lay claim to the title really ...  Everything else is highly experimental like the rare Hohner Harmonetta.

I think that the reason isomorphic layouts are not popular is because they require redundancy and are therefore larger and more cumbersome as instruments.  A 72 bass Stradella accordion has all the basses and chords necessary to play the music ... but in order to make every key equal it needs to be stretched to 120 bass so keys like C# and F# are possible to reach with the fingers.  A 3 row continental chromatic has all the notes, but in order to need just one single fingering for the keys a whole 2 more repeated rows are necessary.

One of the main things about the melodeon is it's efficiency giving it a large range on a small keyboard with minimal hand stretching.  Every time people search for a more isomporphic solution or some way of maximising chromaticism the instrument designs end up more and more cumbersome until you might as well go with the fairly good system that is already manufactured.

I speak as someone who still tries to maximise the system myself!  We are sometimes our own worst enemies!
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2017, 12:46:47 PM »

I've thought, ever since I first became aware of them, that I'd go for a CBA over a PA every time.  Having said that I'll stick with 2 rows and eight bass (or one and a half row with two bass) - all the notes and chords I need.
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2017, 12:53:00 PM »

I haave never heard the term isomorphic it sounds more like a type of anaesthetic!  However in answer to the piano box - v- continental chromatic I would recommend the continental every time!  on a 3 row 3 scales give 12 keys and on a 5 row one scale CAN be used although I would recommend learning the 3 as on a 3 row.

george
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Jack Campin

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2017, 01:22:12 PM »

I haven't seen enough documentation about the Harmonetta to understand exactly what it does.  Are all the sounds controlled by the keys like a melodica, or do you have a conventional mouth organ stuck on the front?  And if so is it a chromatic or diatonic?
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squeezy

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2017, 02:38:22 PM »

Hi Jack ... there's a mouth-organ type part where you blow and suck (same notes both ways) and the mouth position only controls the octave the notes are played in.  However no notes will sound unless you press the keys on top down - each key opens one note in the 12 note chromatic scale.  The buttons are hexagonal with a raised triangle on top and tesselated like a honeycomb.  Where the buttons intersect are either a dip or a point ... the dips play major triads and the points play minor triads.

Very hard to explain actually ... but the relationships are such that playing the same chord sequence in different keys can be done with the same fingering.  Mine's still a bit broken despite several attempts to mend the mechanism ... it's an interesting idea with fairly limited applications!
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2017, 03:55:22 PM »

Demo of the Harmonetta here. Looks great fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAMr3s5GB6s
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2017, 07:05:26 PM »

Isomorphic suggests similar shape.  Therefore I think you mean the same fingering pattern for each scale of the chromatic compass.

If I'm correct, you're making no reference to the consistency or otherwise of bellows patterns.

And if that's correct, perhaps you're only dealing with half the implied problem.  On semitone boxes, where every scale (apart from C and B major or whatever) has different pattern.  I find that remembering bellows direction, rather than remembering which button to press, is my main problem when playing in unusual keys. 

But, if it's incorrect, and you want consistent bellows patterns as well, then you'll be having paired reeds (press+draw) for every note, and a lot of buttons.  The most economical way along this route in terms of weight, bulk and cost is surely 5 row cba - something like a Chaville 5. 

I don't think you can have your bun and your halfpenny. 

Good luck with your music
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2017, 07:52:32 AM »

Just so that we are all talking about the same thing, Greek:

  ἴσος isos "equal", and μορφή morphe "form" or "shape

In essence this means that all the chord shapes would be the same, a sort of crystalline structure.  Similarly a dorian minor would follow the same pattern with regard to up down left right moves. You simply start and from a different place.   The CBA achieves this by having rows and exact semitone apart; buttons an exact minor third apart.  Bayan is the same, and simply rises its semitones outwards rather than inwards, a mirror image.  I will let someone else explain Atzarin!

Remarkably the Stradella  base is also isomorphic along its axis, rising a musical 1/5th in thumb direction, falling same toward the ground. Thus if you are in C and want to 'go dorian' - just rise 2 buttons - C > G > D.  It is the same movement to get from Bb to its dorian C bass, and the minor chord is also on the same place on the rows. 'Isomorphic' (:)

Crossing the  Stradella always gets the same dim> V> minor> major> bass >3rd effect.  So it is' isomorphic' with regard to changing one chord on the tonic to another, but not in terms of intervals.

Is a piano keyboard isomorphic? I'd say not, because of those white and black keys of different shape. However, if you played at the stems of the keys,  all 10mm across - ignoring black/white - it is! And to be fair most CBA keyboards have black and white keys too! 

Thus endeth the Lesson  :|glug
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 10:08:39 AM »

Don John looks disturbingly like he's eating a chrome and button sandwich!

Huw, before you throw away your DG, it might be very useful trying to explore cross-row possibilities more, if you're not doing that already, because that will give you a whole new lease of life.  The simple system does offer all sorts of melody and accompaniment opportunities for many tunes in the home keys, which is probably why it became so popular.  And it's actually still quite efficient in terms of duplicated same-bellows-direction notes - there are only two per octave, D on push and E on pull.   So if bass accompaniment and small size are what you want for the home keys, it's got acknowledged advantages. 

And just a few extra third row notes and maybe 4 more bass buttons help no end to remove a few other limitations of the concept.
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Huw Adamson

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 06:09:48 PM »

Just so that we are all talking about the same thing, Greek:

  ἴσος isos "equal", and μορφή morphe "form" or "shape

In essence this means that all the chord shapes would be the same, a sort of crystalline structure.  Similarly a dorian minor would follow the same pattern with regard to up down left right moves. You simply start and from a different place.   The CBA achieves this by having rows and exact semitone apart; buttons an exact minor third apart.  Bayan is the same, and simply rises its semitones outwards rather than inwards, a mirror image.  I will let someone else explain Atzarin!

Remarkably the Stradella  base is also isomorphic along its axis, rising a musical 1/5th in thumb direction, falling same toward the ground. Thus if you are in C and want to 'go dorian' - just rise 2 buttons - C > G > D.  It is the same movement to get from Bb to its dorian C bass, and the minor chord is also on the same place on the rows. 'Isomorphic' (:)

Crossing the  Stradella always gets the same dim> V> minor> major> bass >3rd effect.  So it is' isomorphic' with regard to changing one chord on the tonic to another, but not in terms of intervals.

Is a piano keyboard isomorphic? I'd say not, because of those white and black keys of different shape. However, if you played at the stems of the keys,  all 10mm across - ignoring black/white - it is! And to be fair most CBA keyboards have black and white keys too! 

Thus endeth the Lesson  :|glug

What Chris said! :)

Don John looks disturbingly like he's eating a chrome and button sandwich!

Huw, before you throw away your DG, it might be very useful trying to explore cross-row possibilities more, if you're not doing that already, because that will give you a whole new lease of life.  The simple system does offer all sorts of melody and accompaniment opportunities for many tunes in the home keys, which is probably why it became so popular.  And it's actually still quite efficient in terms of duplicated same-bellows-direction notes - there are only two per octave, D on push and E on pull.   So if bass accompaniment and small size are what you want for the home keys, it's got acknowledged advantages. 

And just a few extra third row notes and maybe 4 more bass buttons help no end to remove a few other limitations of the concept.

I fear you may have misunderstood me, I'm certainly not going to stop playing D/G, the size, weight and rhythm are all to good for me to simply change instrument. I'm merely asking somewhat hypothetically, (almost in terms of musical theory,) and if I were to get a isomorphic instrument it would be very much on the side. I'm just interested to see peoples opinions on isomorphic systems as a concept, rather than looking for advice on them.
Incidentally, I do play cross row a fair bit, but only when I'm after a particular left hand accompaniment, so I start with the tune on a single row and work from there, as opposed to mainly playing on the draw like the French players do. I certainly wouldn't want more third row notes and bass buttons, I've still got a lot to learn on the buttons I've got!
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2017, 06:23:34 PM »

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Hayden duet concertina, invented (or perhaps, as regards the keyboard layout, independently reinvented) by one of our members.

Incidentally, what is that whacking great F# doing on the end of the left-hand side keyboard shown on the page? It's clearly deviant!

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2017, 11:16:30 PM »

Quote
I'm just interested to see peoples opinions on isomorphic systems as a concept, rather than looking for advice on them.
I,m in favor of them ,never miss an episode of star trek lol
Quote
invented (or perhaps, as regards the keyboard layout, independently reinvented)
umm?
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 01:44:56 AM »

Quote
invented (or perhaps, as regards the keyboard layout, independently reinvented)
umm?

Go to the Wikipedia page linked to in the OP and look at the isomorphic keyboard, invented by Kaspar Wicki in 1896, it says.

Then look at the keyboard of Brian Hayden's duet on the page I linked to. It's the same concept. Diagonal rows ascending from left to right in 5ths, descending from left to right in 4ths.

I believe Brian says he was unaware of the Wicki layout when he came up with his. Hence independently reinvented.

Garry Probert

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2017, 09:50:22 AM »

Hi
Quote
Go to the Wikipedia page linked to in the OP
dont need the page as a long standing maccann duet player i,ve heard this before "independently reinvented" 
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2017, 10:02:43 AM »

There is a nice summary of Isomorphic keyboards here  that makes things much clearer than the wikipedia page.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2017, 10:27:51 AM »

Quote
I'm merely asking somewhat hypothetically, (almost in terms of musical theory,) and if I were to get a isomorphic instrument it would be very much on the side. I'm just interested to see peoples opinions on isomorphic systems as a concept, rather than looking for advice on them.
Incidentally, I do play cross row a fair bit, but only when I'm after a particular left hand accompaniment, so I start with the tune on a single row and work from there, as opposed to mainly playing on the draw like the French players do. I certainly wouldn't want more third row notes and bass buttons, I've still got a lot to learn on the buttons I've got!

Ah, OK - I was guessing too much from your 'usually along the rows' comment.   My opinion on the isomorphic layout concept is that despite its mathematical or musical elegance the basic trouble is that most musicians don't naturally think like that - they base their concepts on 'up or down' in pitch, like a piano keyboard, or on intervals on a scale (1st, 3rd, 5th).  I agree with Squeezy's earlier comments.  I found when I tried Atzarin that the first part of the learning curve was too steep for me - yes, it may be possible to train yourself to think of all melodies in terms of intervals to the next note (rather than the absolute pitch of the note or its place in the scale), but I'd need to start from scratch again.  The alternative was to learn the pitch of every single button on push and pull - a daunting task without the assistance of the 1,3,5 framework.  I expect I'll be picked up on that by those that rely on modes as their home concept, but I still believe that most players usually rely on 'major' or 'minor' as some sort of frame of reference.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 10:33:47 AM by Chris Brimley »
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