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Author Topic: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?  (Read 4522 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 10:56:53 AM »

Back to maths?  Well, fundamantally an isometric - so symmetric - keyboard has to have a symmetric music progression behind it. In scale terms there are 5 meaningful ones.

2 whole tone scales - ABC#D#FG - and the notes in between. Then the 3 possible diminished (repeat a minor 3rd interval forever). Using these you can cover all notes with just 2 rows whole tone or three (the CBA) rows diminished. It gets more compicated if you lay buttons into hexagons

or you can use a chord interval. Stradella separates ajacents by 4th/5ths - the quartal chord interval - which is pretty terrible for melody, but makes great sense in harmony terms. The quartal chord is truly open and can be used to harmonise the whole of many memodies.

But our music is typically diatonic, on TT½TTT½ asymmetric intervals. The piano (think white notes), and in effect BOTH ends of melodeon are optimised for that. Which is why the tunes lie so easily on it
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playandteach

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 11:12:26 AM »

Chris R
Are you saying that:
1) a more easily translatable keyboard is fine in theory but not in practice?
2) That there is inherent and fundamental aspect in music that needs physical differentiation?

If so, I agree with you. But perhaps I've misread your post.
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 11:19:44 AM »

I think my view is just another way of agreeing with the two previous posts.
The one significant position EC for an isomorphic keyboard is that you can play in any key with the same fingering.  That applies to melody lines and chord sequences.

Most of us who play diatonic boxes are in a musical culture where a very limited range of keys are important. therfore for most of us the isomorphic layout is not a useful tool.
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Garry Probert

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2017, 11:20:37 AM »

Quote
I still believe that most players usually rely on 'major' or 'minor' as some sort of frame of reference.
I certainly do and most instruments have little idiosyncratic "shall we say natural or design impediments" but in my experience people that incorporate but then think out of the box are the most inspired

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZayTpvm0Yho

I have attempted to emulate the unique stuttering thumb syncopation for a lifetime and have yet to hear anyone play it with the gusto and ease of blake ,whether his playing was the result of just emulating ragtime piano or a completely different approach ,who knows
but everytime i hear it ,its as fresh and inspiring as the first time
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2017, 12:03:13 PM »

Quote
Using these you can cover all notes with just 2 rows whole tone or three (the CBA) rows diminished.

Or in the case of the Atzarin concept, with a constant interval of 1.5 tones along each row, the 3-row layout gives every note in both directions.  An important feature of isomorphic layouts for bisonoric instruments, I reckon.  However, stretching to reach them may not be quite so easy as it is for most notes on a diato.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2017, 12:08:42 PM »

Just to add, it seems to me that although mathematical layout concepts are necessary to understand, we immediately need to consider the ergonomics of learning them and physically playing them, particularly as most music does actually stick to a formula, for example a key.
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Jack Campin

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2017, 02:58:38 PM »

I switch between several different genres on several different instruments; each genre tends to focus around a particular set of pitches (e.g. for klezmer most of the repertoire fits the pitch set of the G harmonic minor scale, for Scottish music it's the pipe scale maybe with a B on top).  So it helps to be able to tell your fingers what set of holes/frets/buttons they're going to need to push - it won't usually be everything possible.

This is the cleverest use of that idea I've seen.  Varese's Density 21.5 is an atonal flute piece, but it's organized so as to move between small groups of notes forming very minimal "modes".  This player is doing it on handbells, by arranging the bells along a table so the clusters are all conveniently accessible without large body movements - the layout is not the usual handbell one, evenly spaced and low to high.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEpT2lziaSc
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Corinto

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2017, 05:21:35 PM »

... My opinion on the isomorphic layout concept is that ... most musicians ... base their concepts on 'up or down' in pitch, like a piano keyboard, ...

... The one significant position EC for an isomorphic keyboard is that you can play in any key with the same fingering.  That applies to melody lines and chord sequences. ...

Isomorphic layout, imho, may be more related to accordions than to melodeons.

That said, a few years I started with a PA, a little Hohner Studiosa 40 (5x8) bass, and have learned since to play several easy tunes to an acceptable level. But I can’t transpose, so I started looking for an easier system where I had not to learn 12 different fingerings. Also I like small, light accordions, so my first look was for a small 5 row CBA C-griff. Not an easy task. Black Diamond has one, 6.7 kgs but the 5th row is not easy to reach because of the treble couplers (per internet reviews) and Bugari has the Piccolino, 6 kgs, not cheap for a newcomer.

So I waited and continued with my PA, always easy tunes. Then I learned about the Janko layout, and that seemed to me (with my very limited musical knowledge) a more logical layout, up or down, almost like the PA, and easy transposing. The only option in the market is the Logicordeon (Weltmeister), fair price but big and heavy. Or have one made on demand, which is easier than I thought at first, and not too expensive, but for whatever reason I didn't take the step.

So looking around finally I could get a Hohner Cornelia CBA converted to Janko layout by Mike Rowbotham. It’s a LMM going from G3 to G5, this choice was made because of my tunebook, an 48 (4x12) basses. Coming from the PA I was surprised how easy it was to relearn my tunes, in fact the notes are in a similar position, up or down, always on 2 rows, although it is 6-6 and not 7-5, and once you can play a tune in a key, you can in all other keys with the same fingering. At first I wanted lo learn without my thumb, but as my thumb was used with the PA, it became clear very soon that I had to use my thumb.

Of course I am a complete newbie, with very few musical knowledge and very limited experience. But I can change keys and for some family sing-along sessions, it’s important. YMMV.

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playandteach

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2017, 06:43:40 PM »

That looks really tempting. What does it sound like? (I realise you could have this done to other 3 rows)
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squeezy

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2017, 10:13:37 PM »

Fascinating to see that done to a Cornelia which is the box I have in D/G/acc melodeon tuning on the right hand.  I find 2 things striking me on looking at it is just how much less range you get than I do on a melodeon system (2 octaves as opposed to almost 4*) and trying to understand how you would possibly finger a keyboard like that.

By that I mean that it seems like a very linear scale (like a PA) but on a PA you would go up the scale and move hand position by letting the thumb travel under the fingers, however with the Janko system, the scale also shifts row inwards at these points.  Is it not cumbersome to play tunes that go up and down the scale quickly?  I agree it looks as if the thumb is a necessity, but with such small buttons on a flat keyboard does that not make accidentally striking other buttons a problem too?

* the original B system of the Cornelia gives 3 octaves.

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Huw Adamson

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2017, 12:08:32 AM »

By that I mean that it seems like a very linear scale (like a PA) but on a PA you would go up the scale and move hand position by letting the thumb travel under the fingers, however with the Janko system, the scale also shifts row inwards at these points.  Is it not cumbersome to play tunes that go up and down the scale quickly?  I agree it looks as if the thumb is a necessity, but with such small buttons on a flat keyboard does that not make accidentally striking other buttons a problem too?
I can see that being a problem, and it's why many Jankó keyboards have 4 to 6 rows, even two is the minimum to play isomorphically. With extra rows a Jankó keyboard can actually become more ergonomic (although the jury's out,) because you never have to 'reach up to a black note' with your thumb. Still though, I only have three rows with my melodica with the same system, and it isn't too much of a problem in practice.
Incidentally, here's the scale guide for the 5 row piano version, from Paul Vandervoort. http://www.daskin.com/page5/page1/page1.html#How_can_I_learn_to_play_a_Janko
I have no experience with the Cornelia, but I'd certainly like a raised keyboard with such a system. I can see the same thing being a problem when it was a CBA though.
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2017, 01:25:46 AM »

Huw, are you the guy who showed up at an Edinbal Wednesday night practice with a melodica extended to Janko with a bunch of wooden keywork?  (If not, there are two Janko melodica players in the UK).
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2017, 09:29:30 AM »

Chris R Are you saying that:
1) a more easily translatable keyboard is fine in theory but not in practice?
2) That there is inherent and fundamental aspect in music that needs physical differentiation?

If so, I agree with you. But perhaps I've misread your post.

i was sort of saying that 'isometry" and equal prgressions are intimately connected. Crystals, real ones rather than glass, are perhaps the best analogy. If you know where atoms 1,2,3 are in a row you know exactly where 17, 201 and for that matter 20,001 are. Similarly a "rooks move" on CBA is a fouth or fifth musically, depending on direction. Key doesn't matter.  Great chromatically. Heavy in preactive, and actually you don't use all these notes in the music most of us play.

Whereas on a 2xdiatonic setup all notes are useful, albeit some dont venture upthe squeeky end all that often on DGs. So yes, I am saying "n practice.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2017, 11:57:49 AM »

I'm not sure I fully understand your recent questions or answers about layout, Chris R and playandteach, but I do think you're both on to something!

Here's my ha'porth, following my earlier comments:

The two-row quint 8-bass diato is basically a clever musical concept, which has been of benefit to many for playing many tunes with satisfying bass and chord accompaniment on a small instrument.  It has become popular as a result (though perhaps unnoticeably in the wider music scene).  It has advantages over more 'logical' systems, in that it allows most of the music it covers to be played, ergonomically.

'Ergonomically' here refers to the physical ease of playing the necessary notes, and to ease in learning the system.

There is a challenge when playing more advanced forms of music:  how can it be adapted to remove the inherent restrictions of the concept?  There is little point trying to add to it to play in lots of other keys, the notes are not set out like that.  If you want to play one in another key, you're probably best to pick up another (transposing) box with a similar layout.   However, for the home keys, there is a lot that can be done to enhance the possibilities, by adding accidentals and reversals on a third (and maybe even 4th row). 

I believe this is the next conundrum - how to add to the 2-row quint diato design in such a way that all possible RH notes are available, mostly on both push and pull, still satisfy the mathematics of music, and still be ergonomic for players?   We haven't cracked that one yet, there's lots of different designs around.
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Corinto

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2017, 01:39:09 PM »

how you would possibly finger a keyboard like that. By that I mean that it seems like a very linear scale (like a PA) but on a PA you would go up the scale and move hand position by letting the thumb travel under the fingers, however with the Janko system, the scale also shifts row inwards at these points.  Is it not cumbersome to play tunes that go up and down the scale quickly?  I agree it looks as if the thumb is a necessity, but with such small buttons on a flat keyboard does that not make accidentally striking other buttons a problem too?

As far as now I feel happy, and yes, I use my thumb. And coming from a PA I found it quite easy to adapt to this layout.

Of course I've lost an octave, but my PA also has only 2 octaves, and I've more than 200 tunes in my tunebook fitting in this range, and I'm sure there are much more out there, and also this G3-G5 2 octaves fits better with my prefs ... so if I need more range, I'll have to go for the LOGICORDEON (heavy at 8,7 kgs) ... time will say.

Don't forget I'm a retired newbie who wants to play easily and when someone wants it in another key, be able to do this without thinking ...
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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2017, 01:40:52 PM »

Incidentally, here's the scale guide for the 5 row piano version, from Paul Vandervoort. http://www.daskin.com/page5/page1/page1.html#How_can_I_learn_to_play_a_Janko

Thanks Huw.
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Huw Adamson

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2017, 07:12:11 PM »

Huw, are you the guy who showed up at an Edinbal Wednesday night practice with a melodica extended to Janko with a bunch of wooden keywork?  (If not, there are two Janko melodica players in the UK).
Nope, I know there are two because I stole the idea from a chap on youtube. His has wooden keys, mine are pennies (heads being the C scale.) One day I hope to make an improved design, once I can afford it.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2017, 10:20:03 PM »

I believe this is the next conundrum - how to add to the 2-row quint diato design in such a way that all possible RH notes are available, mostly on both push and pull, still satisfy the mathematics of music, and still be ergonomic for players?   We haven't cracked that one yet, there's lots of different designs around.

Don't lose sleep on it. Many have tried and failed and the 'buttons' just ain't there.  To bolt chromaticity onto a 2 row diatonic you have to modify one of the rows, otherwise (won't bother you with the maths) you are 1 button short on pull, with (in my case) Ab on push, otherwise fully chromatic. 

And the 'black' notes end up in quite bizarre places. The scales are all over the place.

No it's diatonic bliss, or an isomorphic (but heavy) CBA, or major compromise.   You can do much more with the bass however. My 18 bass is … virtually unrestrictive in what it lets me do
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2017, 11:25:58 PM »

I believe you Chris, for three rows - it's push that's the problem.  But what about having four rows?  You can't keep a constant relationship for the 2 acc rows, on push, because you'd need 8 extra buttons, per group of three on the 2 diatonic rows, but the 'slippage' by one button on each octave should be acceptable, because that's what you get on pull anyway (and it's a 4-button repeat on my acc row, for both push and pull).
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Thoughts on isomorphic layouts as melodeon players?
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2017, 08:00:50 AM »

Sorry, my last post was wrong - on the push you would need 7 (not 8 ) extra buttons per repeated group of 3 main row, and on the pull, 6 per repeated group of 4 main row buttons. 

This does suggest there would be benefits in a 4-row layout.

It also suggests that with such a layout the Gleichton idea would not really be necessary.  However, if both push and pull on the main rows had a 4-button repeat, you should then at least be able to achieve an 'isomorphic' layout in the limited sense that each octave would be the same.  How about G B D E and D F# A B being the push notes for G and D rows, i.e. with extra sixths?  This would make push relative minor chords available, and mean that you'd need 6 extra buttons (push and pull) for fully two-way chromatic layout.

I accept that this would be a considerable change in the diatonic concept, but it might be quite easy to learn?  It would also ease the learning of the relationships between the buttons on the two new 'accidental' rows, because of the octave repeats for everything.  So it might be quite ergonomic.  I can't try it out on the FR18, because it's only got three rows.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 09:29:02 AM by Chris Brimley »
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