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Author Topic: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play  (Read 3351 times)

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Melissa Sinclair

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Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« on: January 25, 2017, 05:19:13 PM »

Now that I have two boxes at or on its way to Scott Bellinger, I am really thinking about club system versus traditional set up. When I came here I was pretty sure I wanted a club accordion because it seemed to offer lots of choices in voices that were pretty affordable. I didn't think I would ever play the fast jig type songs and I still feel that way for the most part, so the club seemed fine as faster pieces on nearly all club instruments seemed awkward and or slow.

My question now is, HOW do you play a clubbed accordion? I thought I had a general understanding, but maybe not? I have been trying to find a video explaining it, but I've been getting accordion clubs... not helpful. Or I find a few people who play it, but no explanation.

Is it that you hit the gleichton key at the same time as the key you want to keep the same on push and pull - no, that doesn't seem right?  I guess I was imagining it somewhat like a piano keyboard with white keys 1st and 2nd row and 3 row being the black keys, but key charts aren't that simple (none of the fingering charts look simple to me yet as I wait for the box to be fixed up).

I'm just so confused... I've tried searching here and other places, but I'm not finding what I want - what I would like is a video of showing how to play chromatic scale on a club system and perhaps comparing how they are the same and different? Is there such a video? If there is, if you can point me to it, that would be helpful.
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 05:26:09 PM »

This website is a good online resource on the Club system, I think it is based around a C/F instrument....

http://www.delaguerre.com/delaguerre/pedagogy/club/toc.html
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 05:32:23 PM »

This website is a good online resource on the Club system, I think it is based around a C/F instrument....

http://www.delaguerre.com/delaguerre/pedagogy/club/toc.html

Yes, I was there.. that is when I started to get confused. NO VIDEO... I really need a video illustration. It's hard to puzzle through all the words without being able to visualize it.
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Matthew B

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 05:48:52 PM »

You play a club accordion just the way you play any other melodeon.  The gleichton, the "extra" bass options, and the extra buttons on the half row just give you a few more fingering and scale options.  There are some handy little wrinkles like a some scales in only one bellows direction, some nice extra right hand chord options, and the ability to drift a little further away from the instrument's "home" keys a bit more easily.

As for agility, jigs, reels, polkas, and so on, check around for recordings of Bob Cann, and Mark Bazeley -- both can be found on Spotify, if nowhere else.  Both were club players, and it doesn't seem to have slowed them down. 
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folkloristmark

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 06:05:18 PM »

CF.The only differance is you can play the middle C in both directions on the F row This gives a very useful C push also if playing more than one note as a lot of traditions do you have a C home note to grap for if playing in C or , the third note in the Chord of F. I think this makes quick playing as you have a safe refuge either way as far as candances go. The lost D is on the bottom row same direction anyway.However if you are transposing single row patterns based on home key you only have the C row straight.In some way it helps in others it hinders especially if playing by patterns. Its not something to get concerned about at this stage as you dont know were you melodeon is going to take you and who you will be with.Of you do get the minor chord on the bass side again could cramp you style or decorate it. With the lilly if you keep it club it gives you a little diversity as you have a two row box up and down or cross row style in home key. The addition of incidentals and a club button takes you to more advanced posibilities but if not that great a player you just end up playing a two row with buttons you rarely touch.Save all that for latter to declu a lilly only involves two reeds and is not difficult leave it club and declub when you are a wizard on the two row .It is very usefull to try and explain if any sense is given and it will take a level of knowledge to appreciate the real difference. I am always going back to boxes years latter and going Ah thats why ;Jack off all trades is master of none . And thats before we halfstep CBA or get a concertina bayen.........my head is hurting lol
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 08:03:27 PM »

As some others already said:
you play it like any other melodeon.
Playing the Gleichton button means If you need the tone that would normally be on pull:
you have to borrow it from the other row.

Certainly Gleichton and third partial row will give you additonal possobilities you can use when you are an accomplished player.
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 09:26:19 PM »

Melissa, if you are starting from scratch, you could equally learn either system. The difficulty comes from switching from one to the other once you have become accustomed to one. What you haven't had an opportunity to realize yet, is that a lot of melodeon playing is rooted in "patterns" -  combinations of push/pull treble & bass sequences. It's surprisingly difficult to adjust to a new pattern. Some people manage this quite well & are skilled at  different systems, but I suspect most melnetters stick to one system.  My advice would be to stick to the standard quint system. I think the underlying thought is: don't worry about what you can't play, focus on what you will be able to play ... it will keep you occupied for years to come.  :||:
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 09:34:09 PM »

Melissa, if you are starting from scratch, you could equally learn either system. The difficulty comes from switching from one to the other once you have become accustomed to one. What you haven't had an opportunity to realize yet, is that a lot of melodeon playing is rooted in "patterns" -  combinations of push/pull treble & bass sequences. It's surprisingly difficult to adjust to a new pattern. Some people manage this quite well & are skilled at  different systems, but I suspect most melnetters stick to one system.  My advice would be to stick to the standard quint system. I think the underlying thought is: don't worry about what you can't play, focus on what you will be able to play ... it will keep you occupied for years to come.  :||:

Ah, but I have two different melodeons coming to me - one a club system (Lilliput - which I could declub) and one a standard system (an older Hohner). THat is what this has come up... I have to decide NOW.
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 09:43:03 PM »

Speaking very generally, club tends to be played across the rows, and the normal layout not necessarily. One advantage of the 'standard' system however, layouts aside, is that you may have more luck finding tutorials on a standard than on a club layout. From what I have read of your situation that should be an advantage.
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AirTime

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 10:53:24 PM »

Quote
Ah, but I have two different melodeons coming to me - one a club system (Lilliput - which I could declub) and one a standard system (an older Hohner). THat is what this has come up... I have to decide NOW.

I understand that. You are perhaps misunderstanding my point. The club system offers the possibility (from what I understand) to expand the chromatic range compared to a quint system. However, there are endless tunes that you can learn to play on a standard quint box, so I would not worry about any limitations of the quint system. The reasons for going with the quint system (ie declubbing the Lilliput) are that nowadays it is more commonly played (certainly among melnet members & also on youtube) than the club system, which will help you in the learning process.
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Matthew B

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 01:23:50 AM »

Ah, but I have two different melodeons coming to me - one a club system (Lilliput - which I could declub) and one a standard system (an older Hohner). THat is what this has come up... I have to decide NOW.

Don't sweat the details . . . you'll figure it out.  Lilliputs, clubbed or de-clubbed, are unique little boxes for many reasons.  Just see which sounds best to you and get along with that for a bit.  The only certainty is that things will change.

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2017, 08:30:25 AM »

I think Melissa is in a familiar position - fence sitting, but the fence is about to come down. It looks like the general sway of advice here is to err towards declubbing.
I have no experience at all in declubbing, but I have had a Dutch Reversal which has similar issues, and it took me a week or two to get used to it - because I am primarily a crossrow player. I think if you learn along the row mainly it might be harder to incorporate the change.
This is of course open to correction from more experience players of both types.
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2017, 09:29:38 AM »

I am a fan of the Club system, even though I mostly play non-Club boxes. It would be too hard to change the habits of nearly 40 years.
I do have one unmutilated Hohner C/F Club box and I love it, but I mostly use it for tunes I don't play on the other boxes.
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2017, 09:44:45 AM »

I started on the normal unclubbed system, but moved to the club many years ago when I wanted to play in more keys than I could on my standard 2-row D/G and not have to buy and carry around several different instruments.  It didn't take long to adapt to playing the E missing on the D  gleichton button with that on the outside row on the pull or on the 'accidental' row on a push.  Eventually I 'clubbed' my old D/G Hohner as I found that although it was not a problem swapping to the Hohner and playing the E on the outside row automatically without any problem, I found that I was getting used to using the D on the pull in the club system quite a lot and that did require quite a bit of adapting to stop adding in unwanted Es into a tune!
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 10:34:53 AM »

I'm just so confused... I've tried searching here and other places, but I'm not finding what I want - what I would like is a video of showing how to play chromatic scale on a club system and perhaps comparing how they are the same and different? Is there such a video? If there is, if you can point me to it, that would be helpful.

This little section started to ring faint alarm bells with me. The 4th-apart tuned melodeon - even the club system - is not a truly chromatic instrument. Yes, if you have got the half-rows, a.k.a. 'helper rows', you potentially have all the accidentals needed to play a chromatic scale. But that doesn't mean that the instrument is happy playing chromatic music. It falls awkwardly under fingers and bellows direction changes.

What the 4th-apart tuning (club or otherwise) does best is relatively simple harmonic music based on a limited range of major and minor scales, which is (a) why it is so good for traditional dance and song tunes and (b) why melodeon enthusiasts tend to end up with two or more instruments in different tunings D/G, G/C, C/F etc. so they can play in more keys other than the few which each individual instrument would give you.

Also, club-tuned instruments tend to be in C/F or Bb/Eb as these were the common keys when the club system was first developed in Germany. To my knowledge there are few club instruments (if any) tuned in G/C or D/G unless they are made to special order or converted.

Semitone-tuned instruments B/C, C#/D etc. give you more scope for chromaticism but then you become limited by the LH chords and basses if you start playing far outside the basic home keys of the instrument. But they do have their enthusiastic adherents, as do the B/C/C# systems, and I'm sure someone will come along and make that point shortly. Nevertheless, they are not generally used for playing in the more remote keys or with a lot of chromatic passages which might be found outwith the 'traditional' genres of music.

If you want a truly chromatic instrument you really need to be looking at a piano accordion or continental chromatic button accordion. Otherwise I do strongly recommend that you accept the limitations of the 4th-apart tuned instrument, find your way around it and discover what it can do very well and enjoy it for its own sake and not get frustrated trying to force it into playing music for which it is not really suited.
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 10:49:28 AM »

Steve has accurately described the limitations of our 4th apart boxes.
I came from a fully chromatic English Concertina and it took me a while to understand the melodeon that we all play has built in limitations and is not similarly chromatic.
I remember a comment from Theo ' embrace the limitations....' and it did eventually click with me.
As I've been told, there are thousands of tunes out there, work on the ones that you can play on it and don't fight those that are just too awkward - move on to the next tune!
....and some of my favourite tunes are the simpler traditional ones that have an innate bounce to them and don't need a fist full of extra notes  ;)
Q
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 12:15:28 PM »

As I've been told, there are thousands of tunes out there, work on the ones that you can play on it and don't fight those that are just too awkward - move on to the next tune!
....and some of my favourite tunes are the simpler traditional ones that have an innate bounce to them and don't need a fist full of extra notes  ;)
Q

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 12:55:34 PM »

" So many tunes, so little time!......"
Yes, how true!
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 01:05:34 PM »

You all are wonderful... this has been helpful. And yes, I agree, so many tunes, so little time. I think I got caught up into thinking, "Let's say, I want to play....the Star Wars theme". (I don't, but my son watched it on TV last night and it popped into my head and is a good example.) Would I be able to do that? (googled quickly to find a piece... ah... the adaptations to make it work... which, in this case works if you are playing for yourself, but would not work if playing with an ensemble - not as carrying the entire tune anyway) https://youtu.be/F9QlALraWGs


The ONLY time I can think of where I wanted to learn a particular song to do accompaniment to would be if our music director at work would say, "Hey Melissa, could you play accompaniment to this month's theme song on week 3 to support the chorus?" And the song could be one of many choral pieces - folk, country, pop. traditional secular hymns. Would I be able to do that?  This is implying a LOT of things too - like I would ever be good enough to even WANT to play in front of 150 people! Ha! I'm thinking, "not really"?
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Re: Playing a clubbed instrument versus traditional melodeon play
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 02:09:54 PM »

You
The ONLY time I can think of where I wanted to learn a particular song to do accompaniment to would be if our music director at work would say, "Hey Melissa, could you play accompaniment to this month's theme song on week 3 to support the chorus?" And the song could be one of many choral pieces - folk, country, pop. traditional secular hymns. Would I be able to do that?

You would, if a) you told the director that you could only play in keys with no accidentals or one sharp (assuming a standard G/C box) or b) you haul 5 or 6 fourth-apart instruments around with you.

"Star Wars" ought to be a piece of cake. I'm not really familiar with the whole thing, but in the ceili band we do sometimes play it as a slide (12/8 jig) at dances and everybody on the dance floor under 40 recognizes it and spins round to look at the band in surprise halfway through the second bar....



 
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