Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box  (Read 4784 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Malcolm Clapp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1095
  • Loving my Hohner-reeded wet MMM CastaTommy
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2017, 12:13:12 PM »

I'm wondering what Malcolm did to deserve being transported to the colonies in the first place ... accordion crimes?

Guilty as charged, M'Lud, though MAD cited as an extenuating circumstance.  8)
Logged
Tuner/repairer, now retired, but still playing! Happy to offer advice on repairs etc., and might be persuaded to undertake the odd emergency job for local and longtime  customers. Selling a few melodeons from my collection currently....

brackenrigg

  • Geoff Wright
  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
    • Bracken Rigg Scottish Ceilidh band
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2017, 12:02:56 PM »

And D scale on B/C is even easier with the two groups  pull - push, push, push - pull, pull, pull, pull
Logged
Bracken Rigg Band
brackenrigg@gmail.com
www.brackenrigg.co.uk

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2017, 01:28:39 PM »

And D scale on B/C is even easier with the two groups  pull - push, push, push - pull, pull, pull, pull

That's if you regard bellows movements as something difficult or to be avoided (:)

What you gain in ease of push-pulling in D on B/C you have to pay for with more finger movement (except for G and A, every note is played on a different button).

Rog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2295
  • Repair and tuning in Hants
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2017, 05:32:34 PM »

And D scale on B/C is even easier with the two groups  pull - push, push, push - pull, pull, pull, pull

That's if you regard bellows movements as something difficult or to be avoided (:)

What you gain in ease of push-pulling in D on B/C you have to pay for with more finger movement (except for G and A, every note is played on a different button).
Hi Stiamh...
I've tinkered with the BC system for a while (wish I'd learned on it really) but I'm struggling to play fluidly on it, without, I guess, putting in the time to work up muscle memory for the D/G keys. D in particular I find annoying, mainly the D/F#/A arpeggio, which has the push F#. On a C/C# box I have this arpeggio nicely on the pull. Getting fluid obviously is just a matter of playing the thing probably for a year or more, to reprogram my muscles.
 I recently converted a Double Ray for a client to C#D and have been persuaded to spend time with this system, as I'm kind of halfway there as a DG (4th apart) box player ( I converted an AD box for myself which seems to be the ideal candidate box). So, playing in G on this is the same fingering as F on a BC. My efforts on the BC aren't wasted, as the BC g scale fingering transposes to A on the C#D system. But ...is it all horses for courses?. I notice you are a C#D player. I just wonders if any of the semitone systems has more merit than any other. My one qualm re the C#D is the playing in C looks like it might be a bit tricky.
Interestingly, and as a further aside, I've been playing a CG concertina, which is also quite a nice halfway house, with the lower part of the D and G scales sitting nicely on the C row and the upper part on the G row ( when played in the Irish style).
Because I fix these things I like to be able to play them, esp to gain an understanding of how they are played....

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2017, 05:58:18 PM »

...is it all horses for courses? [...] I just wonder if any of the semitone systems has more merit than any other. My one qualm re the C#D is the playing in C looks like it might be a bit tricky.

It's a question I find increasingly difficult to give a simple answer to. But there have been lots of threads on this topic on here if you want to scrape around. I don't want to rehash here all the arguments I have trotted out previously. (:)

They're the same instrument really. Any fingering you can use on one, you can use on the other - with the small but significant differences that the keys will be a tone apart, as you have noticed. The best players can swap from one to the other without difficulty.

The thing is, with either system, or indeed any system, you need to put in serious, sustained work to get results. If you are a good D/G player, you'd want to have a very compelling reason to change to a semitone system (and vice versa). If you don't have that compelling reason, you won't put the work in, and so (for example) playing in D on B/C will continue to be annoying!

(I'd suggest that was annoying because you didn't get to the stage where the arpeggio was no problematic and the delights of playing "on the draw" kicked in.)

A compelling reason to play B/C, for me, would be the relative ease of playing in F major and G minor, keys that I really like. But since I don't want to lug two boxes around and (not having started at the age of 16) reworking my entire repertoire in new keys is not going to happen, I'll put up with the limitations of C#/D and enjoy its strengths.

Rog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2295
  • Repair and tuning in Hants
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2017, 07:47:45 PM »

Thanks Stiamh. That's a good answer. I'll have a look at old threads too.

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2017, 07:55:31 PM »

...is it all horses for courses? [...] I just wonder if any of the semitone systems has more merit than any other. My one qualm re the C#D is the playing in C looks like it might be a bit tricky.

It's a question I find increasingly difficult to give a simple answer to. But there have been lots of threads on this topic on here if you want to scrape around. I don't want to rehash here all the arguments I have trotted out previously. (:)

They're the same instrument really. Any fingering you can use on one, you can use on the other - with the small but significant differences that the keys will be a tone apart, as you have noticed. The best players can swap from one to the other without difficulty.

The thing is, with either system, or indeed any system, you need to put in serious, sustained work to get results. If you are a good D/G player, you'd want to have a very compelling reason to change to a semitone system (and vice versa). If you don't have that compelling reason, you won't put the work in, and so (for example) playing in D on B/C will continue to be annoying!

(I'd suggest that was annoying because you didn't get to the stage where the arpeggio was no problematic and the delights of playing "on the draw" kicked in.)

A compelling reason to play B/C, for me, would be the relative ease of playing in F major and G minor, keys that I really like. But since I don't want to lug two boxes around and (not having started at the age of 16) reworking my entire repertoire in new keys is not going to happen, I'll put up with the limitations of C#/D and enjoy its strengths.
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2017, 08:02:49 PM »

perhaps DG players would take more readily to semitone boxes if one  >:Eof the makers would produce a realy small lightweight BCC#  based on one of the very small ADG/GCF boxes aand with 12 melodeon or stradella bass. This would  get round the worrying as to whether Bc, C#d, Dd# etc is best  and save carting round multiple boxes as 12 major keys only need 5 easy scales to play.  ~The weight would be no more than that of many of the larger BC boxes and maybe less

george >:E ;)
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

boxer

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 380
  • B/C Pokerwork - ultimate ceili box
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2017, 11:37:45 AM »

Try as I will, I can't make my B/C Black Dot DLX work quite like a D/G.  This is partly to do with the lack of a B bass pair (the 12 third-less stradella basses go up in fifths from F to E), but also to do with the lack of complete triads of anything much more than Cma, Cmi, Bma, Ama, Bbma, Emi, Ema C#mi and C#ma on the right hand side.

As far as I can see, you'd get the right-hand Dma on a B/C/C#, but still not the Gma.

I'd like to be able to play English melodeon tunes in the accepted style, but I'd have to use a D/G to do it, I think.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:28:14 PM by boxer »
Logged
Nuage, Tommy, Cairdin, 
Double Ray DLX 21x12, Black Dot,
Pre-Erica, Pokerwork
plus various stringed things

Rog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2295
  • Repair and tuning in Hants
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2017, 12:24:27 AM »

Yes, that does seem to be one of the limitations of the bcc# system - playing useful chords with the RH.

No it isn't.... Dunno why I wrote that. I'll leave this nonsense here...as I have been rightly corrected below....(:)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 02:10:08 PM by RogerT »
Logged

Theo

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13729
  • Hohner Club Too
    • The Box Place
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2017, 08:23:45 AM »

It doesn't seem to be a problem for Mr Kirkpatrick, a leading light of English traditional music for the best part of half a century with a BCC# as a mainstay of his toolkit. Interesting that he regularly also plays a pokerwork and a one row, so there goes the theory that if you play a BCC# you only need one box.
Logged
Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

Proprietor of The Box Place for melodeon and concertina sales and service.
Follow me on Twitter and Facebook for stock updates.

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2017, 09:59:46 AM »

There are very few chords that can't be played fully on a B/C/C#, and even fewer occasions when that matters.

Interesting that he regularly also plays a pokerwork and a one row, so there goes the theory that if you play a BCC# you only need one box.

Whose theory? This forum's most enthusiastic protagonist of B/C/C# also plays a two-row...
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2017, 11:39:34 AM »

There are very few chords that can't be played fully on a B/C/C#, and even fewer occasions when that matters.

Interesting that he regularly also plays a pokerwork and a one row, so there goes the theory that if you play a BCC# you only need one box.

Whose theory? This forum's most enthusiastic protagonist of B/C/C# also plays a two-row...

and a one row! ;)
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6359
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2017, 01:08:32 PM »

and a one row! ;)

Well, I did wonder, but I wasn't sure  about that.
And in what must have been a serious state of caffeine deficiency I  didn't mean protagonist, I meant... proponent, probably. Or proselytiser?
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh band: www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Stiamh

  • Old grey C#/D pest
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3538
    • Packie Manus Byrne
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2017, 02:07:32 PM »

I stopped looking after checking all the r-h chords I would conceivably want to play. I might have made a mistake - was  just looking at the BCC# keyboard layout, but: all major and minor triads using any of the white notes of the piano as tonic are available - except for G major and G minor!

Into the black notes: F# major and minor, check. C# major and minor, check. Bb major and minor, check. Ab major and minor, check (you can get both of these in both directions!). Eb major, fail, Eb minor, check. That's where I stopped. Some of these don't exactly fall under the fingers, though!

playandteach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3521
  • Currently a music teacher in a high school.
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2017, 02:19:41 PM »

and a one row! ;)

Well, I did wonder, but I wasn't sure  about that.
And in what must have been a serious state of caffeine deficiency I  didn't mean protagonist, I meant... proponent, probably. Or proselytiser?
Nothing wrong with protagonist. It has a precise meaning - which may or may not be true of course.
Logged
Serafini R2D2 GC, Serafini GC accs 18 bass

boxer

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 380
  • B/C Pokerwork - ultimate ceili box
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2017, 09:52:42 PM »

yes, B/C/C# does give a lot of r/h chords, but in the context of playing English melodeon, I would have thought that the missing Gma would create a bit of a hurdle for players less gifted than the great Mr K, whose playing I was privileged to experience last year.   
Logged
Nuage, Tommy, Cairdin, 
Double Ray DLX 21x12, Black Dot,
Pre-Erica, Pokerwork
plus various stringed things

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5401
Re: When a D/G player tries faking it on a B/C box
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2017, 10:12:53 PM »

just play GBhighG    and nobody will notice! The impossibility occurs because G is always push and D is always pull - and you can't come and go at the same time!  You can of course also play Gmaj on the stradella bass at the same time , without worrying about bellows direction and adding anything up to 5 extra voices depending on the box!

george
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 10:29:52 PM by george garside »
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal