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Author Topic: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?  (Read 1562 times)

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TomBom

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2017, 11:20:57 PM »

"Should I jump on a sale of what I might think I want 6 months down the road?" "A year down the road?", etc.
My opinion for this dilemma is: NO. You never know what you're going to like in the future.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2017, 12:16:09 AM »

"Should I jump on a sale of what I might think I want 6 months down the road?" "A year down the road?", etc.
My opinion for this dilemma is: NO. You never know what you're going to like in the future.

Morethan that... I don't even know if I'll continue to like this at ALL!!!


And now when it's 7:15 and have more than a 5-10 minute break ALL day, I'm about to do some homeschooling with my son and THEN I can practice a bit. Most days it can only fit in around 8 or 9 pm.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2017, 10:01:48 PM »

I have another question about different layouts... I was thinking on this while following another discussion.

Let's say an instrument comes up for a great price and a person is tempted to buy it. (not me - not now... this truly is conjecture) But they've been playing on a standard layout and this temptation is a different layout. Couldn't you pay someone to change the layout for you? (Or do it yourself if you know how?) I was just reading someone say on a thread, "Loved it, but didn't love the layout". Would that ever be a reason to not get one if that is fixable? Or is it not?

I never would have thought it was something you could change easily until I saw all these threads floating around about changing this and that. It opens the door to more possibilities then too, doesn't it?

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Huw Adamson

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2017, 01:03:33 PM »

I have another question about different layouts... I was thinking on this while following another discussion.

Let's say an instrument comes up for a great price and a person is tempted to buy it. (not me - not now... this truly is conjecture) But they've been playing on a standard layout and this temptation is a different layout. Couldn't you pay someone to change the layout for you? (Or do it yourself if you know how?) I was just reading someone say on a thread, "Loved it, but didn't love the layout". Would that ever be a reason to not get one if that is fixable? Or is it not?

I never would have thought it was something you could change easily until I saw all these threads floating around about changing this and that. It opens the door to more possibilities then too, doesn't it?

The safe answer is, it depends. A Dutch reversal for instance is a relatively simple thing to have added or removed. A Club layout is a little harder but still commonly done. People don't tend to change an irish system box to fourth apart though. It generally depends on how the reeds can be rearranged. The main thing is to remember to factor the alteration into the 'great price', or it may not be such a bargain after all.
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Theo

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2017, 01:37:55 PM »

Think of it like buying a car. Doing a complete change e.g. CF to DG or CC# to DG is the equivalent of putting a new engine in a car.  It can be done but its expensive.  If something comes up at a great price that is not your usual system then it's much better to see it as an opportunity to learn a new system.
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Theo Gibb

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Gary Chapin

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2017, 05:58:48 PM »

If something comes up at a great price that is not your usual system then it's much better to see it as an opportunity to learn a new system.

And the thing is, learning new systems is FUN. If you're playing melodeon, you've already given up on utility as a goal.
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Edward Jennings

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2017, 06:40:16 PM »

"If you're playing melodeon, you've already given up on utility as a goal."

Or normality, and MAD looms!
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Edward
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Steve C.

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2017, 01:28:54 PM »

"great price" = "free lunch" i.e. no such thing.  You WILL pay.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2017, 02:39:44 PM »

But does it feel like starting over? Or is it you curse at pressing the wrong button for awhile and then just used it, and then you go to an older box you have and curse again at having to switch back and forth?

I do have a bit experience with that with switching from marching horn and double horn, and even from single horn to double horn (as I owned a single horn for awhile)... and that was my experience... all the other skills were there, just the fingering had to be adjusted to which (as a teen/early 20s) was easy enough within a few hours.

but some of it I don't quite understand... like I don't want get how/why layouts are so different. Is there any other instrument like that?
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playandteach

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2017, 05:37:37 PM »

There are some differences between orchestral instruments - on flute you can have an open G# or a closed one, (in other words on some systems it will play G# by default if you don't hold down the key), German clarinets are quite different, Viennese oboes are too. Other oboes have different octave key configurations.
And of course there are open tunings on guitars etc. which might be a closer parallel. DADGAD is a common tuning.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2017, 06:24:06 PM »

It's a great question Melissa.... If only I knew the answer!
The different keys available reflect where the melodeon originated.
Our DGs were brought into England after a collecting trip by a tune collector in the north of the country in the mid 1950's. He found most tunes were in D or G so brought in the first batch of DGs.
As I understand it, the BbEb's and CF's are used in Germany reflecting their brass bands, and GC in France because I think the tunes tend to be in that key.

The variations beyond that possibly might be because there is great variation in design.
There's a 1 row, and more commonly the standard 2 row 8 bass.
The half row or helper row can be anything from 2 to 5 or more buttons, and eventually increasing up to a full 3rd row.  Each maker has their own tweak on the makeup of the notes of the row from just accidentals to accidentals and reversals to a full row in another key.
The basses can be 8, 12, 14, 18 and even 9 !
With such a huge variation in builds the makeup of the keyboard and basses reflect this variation.
Well, that's my tuppence.....
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2017, 07:45:14 PM »

There are some differences between orchestral instruments - on flute you can have an open G# or a closed one, (in other words on some systems it will play G# by default if you don't hold down the key), German clarinets are quite different, Viennese oboes are too. Other oboes have different octave key configurations.
And of course there are open tunings on guitars etc. which might be a closer parallel. DADGAD is a common tuning.

You learn something new every day!
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2017, 08:33:10 AM »

...but some of it I don't quite understand... like I don't want get how/why layouts are so different. Is there any other instrument like that?

Carrying the other instruments analogy a bit further:
The fourth-apart tuned instruments, D/G, C/F, A/D, etc., are a bit like members of the saxophone family in that you can use the same fingering on each to play the instrument, whether it be soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, etc. All that happens is that the sound comes out in different pitches for the equivalent same fingerings.

But the semitone-tuned instruments are a bit different: similar, but different in that playing across the rows doesn't work in the same way as on a fourth-apart box, and vice versa. An analogy might be comparing the difference between a mandolin (four pairs of strings tuned a fifth apart) and a guitar (six strings tuned a fourth apart except for between the 4th G string and the 5th B string, which are a third apart). So although they are both fretted string instruments, the fingering techniques and shapes needed are totally different.
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george garside

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2017, 09:16:58 AM »

the simplest analogy for the semitone boxes are that ,eg, on a BC the C row is akin to the white notes on a piano and the B row to the black notes - a sort of push/pull piano.

However the same 'transferability' applies to semitone boxes as it does to 4th apart boxes in that  eg  tunes played on a BC will come out in different keys on a CC# or C#D with exactly the same fingering.

But to complicate matters all 12 keys are possible on any semitone box but some with considerable difficulty- hence the combination of BC and CC#   to provide the BCC# box which gets round those difficulties and provides 12 keys without any real problems.

george
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richard.fleming

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2017, 11:02:13 AM »

...but on a semitone box the required accidental is not in some odd place like chin end or row of odds and sods but is immediately  to hand ( or finger) on the outside rwo.  Same goes for D = C row + 2 easy nips onto the B row for C# and F#. A same but with an extra departure for the handily placed  G#
george

What a good argument for playing semitone-apart  boxes - whereas the argument for DG seems to be that if you learnt them not realising the advantages of semitone-apart systems, because they were supplied to the English folk revival by someone who didn't know much about box playing and didn't bother to find out where trial and error had led Irish players over the years, and because everyone else seemed to play/supply them - then it's simpler to carry on in spite of their obvious limitations...
Probably best to duck and run for cover now?
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george garside

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2017, 11:53:14 AM »

the reason I play both systems is that I started on a BC because DG's were more or less unheard of. ( I think John Kirkpatrick started the same way)  I then added the C# row  by buying a trichord  and it was not until many years later when I started to attend folk festivals and sessions  that realising that every other bugger was playing DG and more importantly virtually every tune was in D or G that I bought a SG pokerwork to sort of 'fit in' with everybody else and also because by then I didn't have a BC. only a 96 bass BCC# which was too cumbersome to cart about for sessions /festivals  and its case took up an extra chair with ensuing dirty looks!

I still use a dg for sessions/festivals  but  very much enjoy the versatility of the big 3 row and have recently purchased a 'doer upper'  BC  with the all important 12 stradella bass  which is where I started and which will make a good box for when I am old and knackered!

george
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richard.fleming

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2017, 12:05:05 PM »

Yes, a BC or Csharp/D with the mini-stradella bass seems a pretty good solution for English players who like  lot of bass. I also suspect that if you want to play in the full range of major and minor scales and modes that feature in Irish music you would be unable to do so on a DG, though some of you may be able to contradict me on this possibly? (The tunes that lend themselves to DG are not always the most interesting tunes, I think). I'm not too sure myself, coming from the Irish tradition, whether bass is that important. Would you want a bass rhythm on a fiddle? or on a tin whistle? I don't think so. Until recently we've had to buy whatever the Italians or the Germans wanted to make for us..
I started on BC because I bought a Double Ray for a fiver in a Dublin pawn shop in 1966. A stroke of luck looking back on it
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 12:09:13 PM by richard.fleming »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2017, 12:11:41 PM »

Richard - I reason I came over from English concertina was because I wanted an accompaniment available from the bass end of a DG. The tunes I play would just be thin without.
The other reason is simply most of the English tunes I play are in D or G. If I had a more chromatic system such as you describe, or even a 2.5 row/12 bass then a lot of it would not be used so all I've done is given myself a weight penalty over a straight 2 row 8 bass DG.
Horses for courses and all that!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

richard.fleming

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2017, 01:21:35 PM »

Thrupenny Bit - How does a BC with 21/23 buttons and 8 basses have more weight than a DG with similar buttons.? And why would the notes not be used? You would be able to play in all sorts of modes and keys and play really interesting tunes with no extra weight. no extra buttons. I use all the buttons on my box, pretty much, I think. Many of the tunes I play are in D or G too, but my accidentals are all in sequence like black notes on a piano, not at one end or on an accidentals row.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 01:28:30 PM by richard.fleming »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Keyboard layouts? How/why would you ever change systems?
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2017, 01:37:51 PM »

Richard - no, they must be similar weight.
I was thinking of your reference to a stradella, which I'd have thought weighed more. For English music we don't need to be capable of playing in lots of keys so anything giving more options isn't really necessary unless your music takes you elsewhere. I was trying to say was that to play in many more keys needs more than a 2 row 8 bass and if you don't need more keys then that adds more weight for no given advantage.
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!
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