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Author Topic: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)  (Read 3740 times)

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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2017, 10:24:40 PM »

New question and please excuse my ignorance all such things.

So... these two pieces are the first in the book  Pignol & Millert written this way. I thought it meant to only play right hand, but now listening to the tune on the digital CD, I can see I'm supposed to continue with the left hand throughout the piece. That is easy enough for the first piece as it's all the same two buttons.

But on the next piece, the waltz, it says "For this piece A (pull) and G (push) are used. Well that's not completely true. First Measure is AE row, 2nd-3rd measures GD row, 4th-5th measures AE row and  6th measure GD row.

The next line is void as is 3rd line. Again, I assumed it meant left hand stopped, but it didn't. So... am I supposed to follow the AE/GD/GD/AE/AE/GD the rest of the piece? Or know which one to start on based on the treble hand first note? AcK!

Oh, or wait... I'm supposed to be looking at the chord guide up top? of which they have never mentioned yet in the book? and it's the first time showing them in the book too. (I was thinking of those as Guitar guides, but Duh... this is not piano/guitar/choral music I so often see...


The exercises in this book are good, but it's not the best at explaining what is next. I suppose that is what having a hired teacher would be for.

I think I just answered my own question, but i'm going to leave it here in case someone else stumbles in the same place and is looking for an answer.
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playandteach

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2017, 11:37:46 PM »

Hard to see as you haven't included the full picture of the instructions. Firstly the numbers are either on the C row (inside row buttons) or G row (outside row buttons). Then there is an underline on the numbers. If it is underlined you pull on that button, not underlined - you push.
This is difficult for me as I have buttons in different places to most folk. But it is possible to play the G chord in either direction - so you might be directed to play it always on the push (except that when you play the A pull treble note, the chord will change automatically to the d chord on the pull). Or it might be (I can't remember what a normally set out C row looks like off hand) that you have a G melody note in both directions, and should think always of the melody G as a push (same thing I said earlier but focusing on the tune rather than the basses).
The A will be on the pull. The guidance is to use the chord notes (not just the chord symbols at the top) to judge direction - as well as the underline.
The only things you can be sure of:
D or d (bass or chord) will always be a pull.
A or a (bass or chord) will always be a pull.
C or C (bass or chord) will always be a push.
E or E (bass or chord) will always be a push.
F or f - can be in either direction - but same buttons.
G or g - can be in either direction - but different buttons.
If you want to show a more exact clip of the instruction (I haven't got book 1) then maybe I could be more helpful.
I don't understand your AE row comments.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2017, 12:16:28 AM »

Do you find you tend to do posts and blogs when you should really be wrestling with the box?

First, this statement is a bit (more than a bit) judgmental and presumptive. I am looking for stress relief to my life. Music used to play that role for me. Writing plays that role for me (I've written blogs for an organization before and for my pleasure too). Finding community is a stress relief for me, as well, it is for most of us. It needs to be things I can do between obligations and I have never, ever had "one thing" that ticks all my boxes. We all spend our time where we need and want with leisure time. Right now, this is how I prefer to spend mine. And that hour a day with practicing is tops my body can handle anyway. I get elbow, hand pain if I do more. And, it's supposed to be a fun hobby and not a chore.
Well, I just meant that it's easy to divert sideways to avoid doing the difficult thing. I used to do housework when I was supposed to be translating, for example. But maybe music isn't the main thing for you.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2017, 01:27:55 AM »

Do you find you tend to do posts and blogs when you should really be wrestling with the box?

First, this statement is a bit (more than a bit) judgmental and presumptive. I am looking for stress relief to my life. Music used to play that role for me. Writing plays that role for me (I've written blogs for an organization before and for my pleasure too). Finding community is a stress relief for me, as well, it is for most of us. It needs to be things I can do between obligations and I have never, ever had "one thing" that ticks all my boxes. We all spend our time where we need and want with leisure time. Right now, this is how I prefer to spend mine. And that hour a day with practicing is tops my body can handle anyway. I get elbow, hand pain if I do more. And, it's supposed to be a fun hobby and not a chore.
Well, I just meant that it's easy to divert sideways to avoid doing the difficult thing. I used to do housework when I was supposed to be translating, for example. But maybe music isn't the main thing for you.

I'm probably saying it all wrong.  Here is more.  It sounds like in the direction I'm only play A and G, but you can see I also play d and e. So, should have written it differently. Then, you can see on the second line, it doesn't (meaning starting with 7th measure) it doesn't show what is being played in the left hand basses. So I was confused, but now I see that it aslo says the note/Chords above, Am, G.

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playandteach

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2017, 04:39:14 PM »

It looks like all the A basses are on the pull (they have to be anyway, so this is redundant info) and all the G basses are on the push (they could be played in either direction so this is useful info).
You will have to reverse the bellows for some of the chords. I wouldn't worry too much, there's nothing deep going on, just an attempt to save you thinking about the G basses.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2017, 04:44:39 PM »

It looks like all the A basses are on the pull (they have to be anyway, so this is redundant info) and all the G basses are on the push (they could be played in either direction so this is useful info).
You will have to reverse the bellows for some of the chords. I wouldn't worry too much, there's nothing deep going on, just an attempt to save you thinking about the G basses.

My confusion wasn't that. My confusion was that I didn't know if I should be playing on the Am or G since they didn't include the bass "lines" after the first line of music. Since the second and third lines of music are not repeats of the first line, I was at a loss - until I figured out that they wrote, for the first time. the Am and G above the staff what basses to play.
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playandteach

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2017, 05:16:22 PM »

Ah. Yes the pattern is just repeated above the stave once you've got the hang of it. Later on in the series they keep all the bass notes in as they specify exact note lengths to practice.
Sounds like it's going well.
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Rob2Hook

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2017, 03:15:59 PM »

Just curious, as your hubby is an actuary, does he also play an instrument?  There is often a close relationship between mathematics and music.  My Dad was an actuary (played piano).  My older brother plays piano and clarinet, I play the box.  Strangely my brother has been trying to venture into folk music, not entirely successful from my standpoint as he still wants to arrange it and play it with his classical partners,  He can't get to grips with all the dance music I play - but then I can't play classical on the box.

The point is, I like to listen to what he plays and vice versa, but I remember the pain of hearing him learn the clarinet or interminal repititions of phrasing on the piano.  I hope you get the home support you need, but do try to practice as much when no-one is around to hear it.

Rob.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2017, 02:54:54 AM »

Just curious, as your hubby is an actuary, does he also play an instrument?  There is often a close relationship between mathematics and music. 

He has never played. I think because he grew up in former Yugoslavia (Croatia) that once his mom saw that he had no rhythm and couldn't sing on key that there was no point. He loves music though and knows/understands music theory as a math... he will talk about 1/3s 1/5s, etc in some mathetical terms while I look at him blankly... I did band and orchestra... no theory... just play the notes in front of me. Perhaps if we could meld our two brains together we might be something extraordinary for music.

My son (20) however is a mathy (he is double majoring in Math and Philosophy and is a computer guru - he is working as a software engineer for a company in Germany part-time while in University). He played piano as a kid and is starting again and played tuba in middle and high school and was quite good. He's also quite interested in my box!)

And yes, in my previous career I worked in university administration and the combo of math/science and music is quite common.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2017, 03:09:22 AM »

OK, my life has been super duper busy - 14 hours of work Thursday, 10 hours Friday, free on Saturday (and I practiced an hour), worked 14 hours on Sunday and now on Monday I practiced an hour after spending some fun time outside with my family on this gorgeous long weekend. This is my life right now... and so far the music is a stress reliever, but man... I wish I was beyond being a beginner!!!
Anyway, I was practicing a new piece today in the Milleret and Pignol book after several exercises. The new has me playing in 2/4 and in basses, Cc or Gg as eighth notes. Right hand is mostly eighth and quarter notes, but has some 16th notes thrown in there too. Of course, that completely throws me off right not to have the 16th notes. I can play the right hand ok by itself (tried just once) but if I try to play with basses, I cannot deal with the 16th notes. Question is... for learning the rest of the piece, can I "skip" pretend the 16th notes don't exist while I get the rest of the piece down and then once I have the rest of it, then throw in 16th notes? Or is that not recommended?  Here is a recording (on violins), but you can here the 16th notes as pick-ups to the next measure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_WIfOhog20

Feeling a bit frustrated!!!
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2017, 07:55:13 AM »

....Right hand is mostly eighth and quarter notes, but has some 16th notes thrown in there too. Of course, that completely throws me off right not to have the 16th notes. I can play the right hand ok by itself (tried just once) but if I try to play with basses, I cannot deal with the 16th notes. Question is... for learning the rest of the piece, can I "skip" pretend the 16th notes don't exist while I get the rest of the piece down and then once I have the rest of it, then throw in 16th notes? Or is that not recommended?...
Two parts to this answer:

1. Yes, it is OK to 'adapt' a traditional tune which doesn't comfortably sit on a melodeon. This might be done, as in your case, by modifying or simplifying the rhythm a little bit so that it becomes easier. The important thing is to keep the rhythmic pulse going steady and true, including the basses/chords, through the modified section. However, you might want to consider this approach as a temporary fix because....

2. ... the key to playing awkward passages is to practice the tricky bits slowed right down. Reduce the tempo drastically if necessary, to a point where you can play it. Practice it at this speed, keeping an absolutely strict rhythm in both hands, and then gradually speed up until eventually you can play it at normal tempo. It takes some discipline to do this, and the process might take several days or even weeks, but if you approach it methodically it should come right. It is important to include the bits either side of the tricky section also at the slower tempos, so that you can get the awkward bit in context. Again, keep everything in strict rhythm; don't hurry through the easier bits and then slow down just for the tricky bits.

If you seem to be getting in a rut with part 2, sometimes it is good to leave the tune for a day or two and then come back to it after a break. You may well find that your playing has improved 'by itself' in the intervening period.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2017, 11:59:42 AM »

In addition to Steve's advice - chunking the tune into small fragments, especially the bits you are finding hard is the most direct route to fixing a problem. If you can share an image of the fragment you are struggling with, I can demonstrate what I mean (assuming of course that I can play it).
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2017, 04:41:55 PM »

Thanks all. Here is the music. It's not hard.. I'm just still in super beginner phase. I know I need to dissect it and learn it section by section, slowly, as close to correct rhythm as possible. My question was though, is it harder to learn/a mistake if I don't play the 16th notes on right hand while I figure out the rest of the piece? Or should I just try to learn it with the 16th notes from the beginning. The whole piece I will get with some practice, but knowing what order to try to do it is the unknown.


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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2017, 05:16:30 PM »

I would accept that it is in a tutor because it aims at skill development.
Therefore I wouldn't try to bypass the skills needed.
I'll quickly show how I'd tackle it.
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playandteach

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2017, 05:27:45 PM »

Sorry, while I was recording it I realised that those notes are round the other way on my set up - so it will only confuse you. The point though is clearly that you learn to slip a bellows reversal in to get the change of pitch - therefore it is really worth working on that point.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2017, 05:50:23 PM »

Now you have posted a scan of the written music, I can see where your problem lies: it is playing a steady oom-pah rhythm on the LH while playing a dotted rhythm on the 2nd beat of the RH. The second half of the bar in the RH cuts across the rhythm of the LH. This means you have to disconnect the LH and RH so that they can work independently.

The only way to get this sort of passage right is to (as mentioned before) practice both hands together very slowly and deliberately so that every note is is played in its proper place. What you should be aiming for at the Bar 'A'  is something like this:

RH: Taaaaaaaah  Taaaaaaa-te
LH: Om - pah      Om - pah

The 'te' of the dotted quaver-semiquaver pair comes after the 2nd LH 'pah'. That's the tricky bit: the tendency for beginners is to play the 'te' and the 'pah' simultaneously, which is not correct. It's rendered even more tricky because the 'te' is on the bellows reversal. Slow deliberate practice is the solution for this.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2017, 06:08:43 PM »

Steve
One of us has misinterpreted this, most likely me for two reasons 1 - I have an odd set up, 2 - you are a more experienced player.
But in my eyes, it is not a LH / RH coordination issue, but a bellows reversal exercise (the pitch change finger can remain in place with no rhythmic movement).
I'm trying to upload what I imagine is the way I would tackle it. Except of course I'd play it across the rows in the same bellows direction because of my reversals.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2017, 09:55:33 PM »

Here's probably far too long a video of how I practise that issue. It is really hard to stop oneself from playing on a bit, but repetition of fragments is the quickest route to skill building. Using the piece zoom in on areas for development is either boring or rewarding or both - depending on your appetite for it. I have a large appetite for this type of learning.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2017, 02:08:36 AM »

Nice video Pete, but when playing the RH dotted quaver-semiquaver pair, your LH oom-pah rhythm is going at half-speed.

When following the written music/tablature exactly, there should be an 'oom' on the start of the dotted quaver and a (push) 'pah' just before the (pull) semiquaver. I think that is the bit which Melissa is finding tricky.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2017, 03:29:56 AM »

You are both correct actually, the quick bellow reversal and the left hand one the last 16th note of the measure and the right hand the second to last 16th note. Basically it's all a mess.

Thanks so much for the video Playandteach. I watched it twice already - with earphones - trying not to make my spouse run away! :-)
Steve_freereeder is also correct, the untying of the hands is also tricky.

I will feel like I truly accomplished something if I ever can play that piece and hopefully someday I'll say to myself, "I thought that was hard?"
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