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Author Topic: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)  (Read 2397 times)

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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2017, 04:40:57 PM »

Next question, as I keep working through the book. (What I do is I try to add a little every day, but also go back to older exercises to get better and better, faster and faster.) What this does, besides keeping me from getting bored, is it affirms that I am GETTING BETTER.

Anyway... this is what is in the next section. While all the exercises have examples to listen to, this does not. It introduces crochets - quavers... I can see the mark above the bass notes, but not how to do it. The exercises below and next pages at least don't use it either. Anyone know?

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2017, 06:04:18 PM »

It looks to me as though the little vertical mark, if that is what you are talking about, indicates where the bass or chord falls, in this case exactly on the beat. So in the last bar (measure) your first chord comes before the first quaver (eighth note), but still on the beat.

Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2017, 06:15:05 PM »

It looks to me as though the little vertical mark, if that is what you are talking about, indicates where the bass or chord falls, in this case exactly on the beat. So in the last bar (measure) your first chord comes before the first quaver (eighth note), but still on the beat.

OMG... thank you! I've never head an eighth note called a quaver before... I thought that mark was to make the bass "quaver"... shake, vibrato or something like that.. So weird they are mentioning it NOW when they added it in exercises like 3 pages before without any sort of introduction... WEIRD. But this clears a lot up in my confused mind.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2017, 06:31:20 PM »

Well perhaps I should point out that "crotchet" = "quarter note" (confusingly, and not equivalent to the French term croche, which is... a quaver). These terms are an area in which (it pains me to admit that) American usage is much better.

I leave you to work out what a "hemi-demi-semiquaver" is. (:)

PS: In French, a "crotchet" is a noire ("black [note]") and a "minim" (half-note) is a blanche ("white [note]"). Fun, n'est-ce pas?

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2017, 06:56:29 PM »

Well perhaps I should point out that "crotchet" = "quarter note" (confusingly, and not equivalent to the French term croche, which is... a quaver). These terms are an area in which (it pains me to admit that) American usage is much better.

I leave you to work out what a "hemi-demi-semiquaver" is. (:)

PS: In French, a "crotchet" is a noire ("black [note]") and a "minim" (half-note) is a blanche ("white [note]"). Fun, n'est-ce pas?

Fascinating... So yes, Crochet... got it... quarter note.

And the hemi-demi- semiquaver? Dotted half note?   (so three beats/counts?)
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2017, 07:02:03 PM »

Well perhaps I should point out that "crotchet" = "quarter note" (confusingly, and not equivalent to the French term croche, which is... a quaver). These terms are an area in which (it pains me to admit that) American usage is much better.

I leave you to work out what a "hemi-demi-semiquaver" is. (:)

PS: In French, a "crotchet" is a noire ("black [note]") and a "minim" (half-note) is a blanche ("white [note]"). Fun, n'est-ce pas?

And for what it's worth... UK language is way better - your swear words, your descriptive words... so much more imaginative, colorful and FUN! I thoroughly enjoy literature that use them. And HUMOR... My husband teases me mercilessly... I'm American, but nearly all my ancestry is German. And humor... not my strong suit, so when my husband CAN get me to laugh - which is random - can never be expected it tickles him endlessly because he can never predict what I find funny or not.
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Stiamh

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2017, 07:28:37 PM »

And the hemi-demi- semiquaver? Dotted half note?   (so three beats/counts?)

You're heading in the wrong direction...
quaver = 8th note
semiquaver = 16th note
demisemiquaver = 32nd note
hemidemisemiquaver = 64th note. Thankfully we don't use many of these in traditional tunes...

your whole note is our semibreve
the next in line (haven't looked up the US equivalent) is our breve (a French word meaning "brief", LOL. Perhaps it's the Brits who are heading in the wrong direction...)

« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 07:30:16 PM by Stiamh »
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2017, 07:38:18 PM »

And the hemi-demi- semiquaver? Dotted half note?   (so three beats/counts?)

You're heading in the wrong direction...
quaver = 8th note
semiquaver = 16th note
demisemiquaver = 32nd note
hemidemisemiquaver = 64th note. Thankfully we don't use many of these in traditional tunes...

your whole note is our semibreve
the next in line (haven't looked up the US equivalent) is our breve (a French word meaning "brief", LOL. Perhaps it's the Brits who are heading in the wrong direction...)

Ha! now things make so much more sense and will confuse me less.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2017, 07:46:42 PM »

One site you might check out is Coursera.org. Search for a free course from University of Edinburgh called, "Fundamentals of Music Theory".  The description follows:
 
" About this course: This course will introduce students to the theory of music, providing them with the skills needed to read and write Western music notation, as well as to understand, analyse, and listen informedly. It will cover material such as pitches and scales, intervals, clefs, rhythm, form, meter, phrases and cadences, and basic harmony.

This course covers the fundamentals of Western music theory, from the absolute basics to some more advanced concepts and, as such, is the perfect course for beginners and more experienced."

It goes a long way to explain things that aren't really taught in the melodeon tutors (quavers & crochets) and a whole lot more. The 6 weeks of lessons are broken up into several sections with the videos running 6-8 minutes followed by the same written material to review. You don't have to do it over six weeks, it could be shorter or longer as the material is always available.  Some of it gets pretty complicated and the quizzes at the end of each section are stimulating, sometimes difficult, but also facilitate learning. They can be repeated until you pass, if you want to, or skipped altogether. You can pay, I think $49 for a certificate at the end if you would like. Not sure what the certificate would be for other than hang on your wall.

I'm really learning a lot and find that it has helped me learn to follow some of the threads on MelNet with more understanding. When someone writes about "Dorian" or "minor melodic scale" I actually know what they're talking about. It's very cool!  Check it out when you have 10 minutes and don't feel like squeezing, I'm sure you'll learn a heck of a lot too.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2017, 08:37:44 PM »

More information about the course "Fundamentals of Music Theory"  (maybe more than you want!) All the curricula with time of video for each.  I suppose you could also pick and choose.

Fundamentals of Music Theory from Coursera.org

Week 1
Pitches, Scales, Modes and Chords
 Introduction
 Musical Notes 10 min
 Octaves 10 min
 More on Scales 6 min
 Introduction to Chords 9 min
Primary Chords 4 min
Quiz: Lecture One 11 questions


Week 2
Keys, Minor Scales, Intervals and Clefs
Introduction 32 sec
Sharps & Flats 6 min
Keys and Key Signatures
Minor Keys 9 min
Intervals 6 min
Ledger Lines and Clefs 4 min
 Quiz: Lecture Two 10 questions


Week 3
Rhythm and Form
Rhythmic Duration 3 min
Rhythmic Duration
Tuplets 2 min
Ties & Dots 3 min
Meter 4 min
Anacrusis, Phrases, and Structure
Form 2 min
Quiz: Lecture Three 12 questions

Week 4
Harmony 1: Functional Harmony
Introduction 19 sec
Listening to Triads and Hearing the Key Note
Elaborating 6 min
Building 6 min
Building Triads
Harmonising 12 min
Summary 7 min
Quiz: Lecture Four 10 questions



Week 5
Harmony 2: Inversions, Cadences and Sequences
Introduction 31 sec
Chord Inversions 6 min
Cadence 4 min
Chord Names 3 min
Common Chord Progressions 7 min
Modulation 9 min
Modulations II 28 min
Quiz: Five 11 questions

Week 6
Final Exam (Parts 1 and 2)
Final Exam *** INSTRUCTIONS and link to music ***
Quiz: Final Exam (Part 1) 13 questions
Peer-graded Assignment: Final Exam (Part 2) 2h

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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2017, 09:49:13 PM »

You know... they way they teach music in the US in schools is horrible. I mean, it's good they teach it and it gives opportunities to play or sing something, but it's all concentrated on playing the instrument in front of you. So, yes, you learn about the staff and the clefs and the notes and the rhythms. If you are "good" you practice scales and know how many flats and sharps are in a scale, but no real music theory. MANY students don't get introduced to theory until the decide to study music in university. First year of music at university is make or break students as it's really the first time that goes beyond "can you play".

Now, I think that the bigger scales in some areas now have classes beyond, band, orchestra and chorus, but most do not. Like, I think my son's high school had a music theory class for those who planned to study music in university.

So, for me - I'm all about treble clef and what a horn can play. I "understand" bass clef but since I rarely ever had to read it, it's not at the forefront. But when it comes to chords and minors and majors (besides knowing minor sounds sad), no idea. I could learn it, but how incomplete the music training is! If I ever would have picked up guitar or piano, I would have a better understanding.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2017, 10:08:40 AM »

Major/minor difference is a simple idea.  Three notes in a chord. In a minor chord the middle note is a half tone lower.  On a piano it's simple to see and play because the notes are laid out in sequence.  Not so on melodeon, so although music theory can be helpful it's not a big deal on melodeon. As others have said spend some time without books just picking out well known tunes and experimenting to find LH chords to fit.  The instrument looks after much of the theory for you because of the way the notes and chords are organised.
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2017, 08:04:34 PM »

OK, more questions. These are probably dumb questions, but I can't figure it out this afternoon.

So, the M&P book shows basses as bellow (top photo). The Sarek book I was given shows basses as follows (2nd picture). third picture shows the two side by side.

Does this mean tat in the M&P book there is a G/C basses button and a g/c chord button and assumes your instrument is like this (my Hohner is). And does the Sarek book assume that that those same buttons are C both direction of the bellows and c both directions of the bellows - but in different octaves?
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2017, 08:08:19 PM »

And another question of the Sarek book. The instructions at the front of the book (for bass melodies) point to play with this in mind for notation (top photo).

But I don't get it when it comes to practice. I just showed the first few measures to show how it's written clearly. It's for bass notes, but it has things written above the staff too which I don't get. When I try to play that... it doesn't sound right at all... but maybe it's not supposed to sound like Twinkle Twinkle 'exactly'...  Hints? Anyone know?
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2017, 10:07:28 PM »

I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.
The shapes are equivalent to bowing marks for string instruments - up bow, down bow. But for me it's against the intuitive interpretation of that - the upside down V is an upbow, but a pull bellows (feels like the sensible equivalent would be the other way round). The 3 sided square (just named one of my tunes that!) is a down bow, but here it is push bellows.
It also looks bizarrely as if the left hand fingers are counted from the little finger (1 - little finger -  for the GC basses, 2 - ring finger - for the GC  chords, 3 - middle finger - for the AE basses, 4 - index finger - for the AE basses) terribly counter intuitive.
Is that enough of an answer - have I missed the point?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 10:15:43 PM by playandteach »
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2017, 11:00:57 PM »

I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.
The shapes are equivalent to bowing marks for string instruments - up bow, down bow. But for me it's against the intuitive interpretation of that - the upside down V is an upbow, but a pull bellows (feels like the sensible equivalent would be the other way round). The 3 sided square (just named one of my tunes that!) is a down bow, but here it is push bellows.
It also looks bizarrely as if the left hand fingers are counted from the little finger (1 - little finger -  for the GC basses, 2 - ring finger - for the GC  chords, 3 - middle finger - for the AE basses, 4 - index finger - for the AE basses) terribly counter intuitive.
Is that enough of an answer - have I missed the point?

Ah yes the fingering was another question. So unbelievably unintuitive. Especially since the right hand fingering is opposite. 

I took the bellow marks to mean (for remembering) upside down V as open bellows and the other mark to show the box closed up. But yes, borrowing string symbols if you're a string player could be confusing. Good thing I'm a brass player.  ;D

Good to know about the probably misprint. It made no sense to me now to really learn how to recognize bass clef without using the "good boys do fine art" and "ACE-G" each and every time to just read the staff  (:) (:)
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2017, 12:18:20 AM »

I've always used the 'down bow' symbol to represent bellows push and the 'up bow' symbol for pull, and I've noticed its use in a few tutor books

I find it intuitive, especially because the down bow is always a strong sound for string players and similarly for melodeon players, representing as it does, the strong tonic chord notes on the RH treble buttons obtained on the bellows push.

Also a down bow starts at the heel of the bow and similarly the bellows push is activated by pushing with the heel (base) of the LH palm/thumb. Similarly an up bow goes in the same direction as the top (back) of the hand, as does the bellows pull, being activated by tension against, and in the same direction as, the back of the hand.

Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2017, 02:36:15 AM »

I've always used the 'down bow' symbol to represent bellows push and the 'up bow' symbol for pull, and I've noticed its use in a few tutor books

I find it intuitive, especially because the down bow is always a strong sound for string players and similarly for melodeon players, representing as it does, the strong tonic chord notes on the RH treble buttons obtained on the bellows push.

Also a down bow starts at the heel of the bow and similarly the bellows push is activated by pushing with the heel (base) of the LH palm/thumb. Similarly an up bow goes in the same direction as the top (back) of the hand, as does the bellows pull, being activated by tension against, and in the same direction as, the back of the hand.

Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:

That I had no opinion on as I'm not a string player (but PlayandTeach found it odd). The add part is to call my pink 1 for left hand and my index finger for 1 on my right hand. CONFUSING!
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2017, 07:34:47 AM »

Hi Melissa.  I have been enjoying reading your posts and the replies given.  18 months ago I too started with the milleret/pignol méthode book.  Found it good, however for me, the tunes seemed to progress in difficulty a bit too quickly - they cover lots of necessary techniques, but I needed to consolidate between lessons. I wanted to spend more time learning and playing easy tunes before moving on to the next stage.
Trad magazine in France publish various music books and I bought the "hors série Accordéon Diatonique volume 1, 106 morceaux, by Jean-Michel Corgeron.  It came with 3cds.  All the tunes have the fingering written and they are graded for difficulty, from one star - easy.  Some lovely tunes in this collection. 
This is a link to the book, I am not sure if the cds are included or need to be ordered separately.  To be honest, I have hardly used the cds, I listen to the tunes played on YouTube.

http://www.librairieorfeo.com/claviers/accordeon/accordeon-diatonique/d-accordeon-diatonique--vol-1-tab-1-1000000011203-v.html

For the bass buttons, I was advised to use ring and middle fingers for c/g and f; middle and index for e/a and g/d.  It works for me; easier to reach the f button and keeps my thumb in a good position for the air button.

Bon courage!

Maggie  :|||:

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2017, 07:48:29 AM »


Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:

That I had no opinion on as I'm not a string player (but PlayandTeach found it odd).
I'm not a string player either. We are both clarinettists (P&T a very fine professional player, I might add)

Quote
The add part is to call my pink 1 for left hand and my index finger for 1 on my right hand. CONFUSING!

You have misunderstood the diagrams.

In the Sarek book, the numbers under the notes for the LH refer to the button numbers, not finger numbers. It is based on a standard eight button LH layout consisting of two rows of four buttons. Buttons are numbered from 1 to 4, where 1 is the nearest to the floor when playing and 4 is nearest the ceiling. Plain numbers refer to the outside row of buttons, numbers in a box refer to the inside row of buttons (i.e. nearest the bellows).

Similarly, as shown in the third photo of your earlier post, the numbering system for the RH side refers again to button numbers, not finger numbers. (how did you think they meant finger numbers when they go up to 11?). The numbering system is for a standard G/C layout with a third button start - i.e. the basic row scales of C and G start on the third button from the chin end. The buttons are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... starting from the chin or ceiling end, going towards floor. Plain numbers refer to the inside C row; numbers in a box refer to the outside G-row.

In both diagrams, the down bow and up bow symbols refer to bellows push and bellows pull respectively, as previously discussed.
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