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Author Topic: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)  (Read 3498 times)

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2017, 08:11:10 AM »

I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.

No, it's not a misprint. The numbers refer to LH button numbers (see my previous reply to Melissa). The music is the first 4 bars of 'Twinkle Little Star' played entirely on the bass (not chord) buttons. It works - try it!

I admit it is slightly confusing to have the chord symbol letters printed above the stave - they are irrelevant in this instance, although an accompanying guitarist (say) would find them useful.
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george garside

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2017, 08:13:34 AM »

I am getting confused!  are we talking about learning to play the box or learning  musical theory and the serious business of proper dot reading?   Although interesting I see them as two separate  chunks of learning, the former being box specific and the latter applying to the playing of any instrument.

Just a thought but Mellisa may find it helpful to concentrate more on getting the hang of the box , hopefully by ear!!, and  then if it suits best , concentrate on the theoretical stuff

george
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2017, 08:24:43 AM »

I am getting confused!  are we talking about learning to play the box or learning  musical theory and the serious business of proper dot reading?

It's neither really. It's simply to do with understanding of how button numbers and bellows directions are portrayed in a couple of tutor books. I notice that you have devised your own similar symbols and numbering system in your 'Crash Course for Beginners' book.  >:E

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Just a thought but Mellisa may find it helpful to concentrate more on getting the hang of the box , hopefully by ear!!

I think she has already been advised previously to noodle around on the box and pick out simple folk tunes, nursery rhymes and hymn/carol tunes. How are you getting on with those Melissa?
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playandteach

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2017, 12:04:50 PM »

I still think the left hand numbering system is weird as our fingers fall on them in index finger at the chin end, and we count the right hand buttons from the chin end too.
The down bow thing is for me conceptually that a down bow starts from a closed body position and we open up the arms - hands getting further apart as we extend and an up bow brings us back to a closed shape.
Also for me - with the French repertoire - the pull is the main direction of travel.
There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but if I had to assemble flat pack furniture with these instructions I might make a mess of it. I guess it doesn't really matter if you can get your head round it.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2017, 12:49:51 PM »

I still think the left hand numbering system is weird as our fingers fall on them in index finger at the chin end, and we count the right hand buttons from the chin end too.

Anglo concertina numbering systems normally start from the lowest pitched end of the rows as no.1 (little finger). This is similar to the numbering system as described earlier for the LH side of the melodeon. Piano key numbering systems also start from the very lowest note on the keyboard as no.1. You don't start (for example) at no.1 on middle C and and increase the numbers both going down and up the keyboard!

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The down bow thing is for me conceptually that a down bow starts from a closed body position and we open up the arms - hands getting further apart as we extend and an up bow brings us back to a closed shape.
Yes - I can see that sort of makes sense too. But for me and probably a good few others, it is the symbology of the down bow shape - its solid, strong square shape which is associated with a jolly good strong push.

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Also for me - with the French repertoire - the pull is the main direction of travel.
Whereas in the 'English' way of playing up and down the rows, the push direction is the dominant one, combined with the block major chords/arpeggios available on the RH side on the push.

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There are lots of ways to skin the cat, but if I had to assemble flat pack furniture with these instructions I might make a mess of it. I guess it doesn't really matter if you can get your head round it.
Yes - the psychology of our perception of the learning processes involved getting to grips with a diatonic push-pull instrument is interesting but perhaps a bit too academic to be of practical use. As you hint at, the most important thing is to understand what is meant by any particular system of notation and symbols.

OK - back to actually playing the bloody thing now.  ;D  :Ph
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May

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2017, 06:47:25 PM »

Several posts back Walleye mentioned Coursera.org and a course The Fundamentals of Music Theory.
I'd just like to say a thank you to him for mentioning this, I started today and already it's cleared some grey areas re theory.
Melissa do take a look but probably best to keep it separate from your study and playing of your instrument at this stage  (:)
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Melissa Sinclair

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2017, 07:44:42 PM »


Seems logical to me...  ;)  :||:  :|||:

That I had no opinion on as I'm not a string player (but PlayandTeach found it odd).
I'm not a string player either. We are both clarinettists (P&T a very fine professional player, I might add)

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The add part is to call my pink 1 for left hand and my index finger for 1 on my right hand. CONFUSING!

You have misunderstood the diagrams.

In the Sarek book, the numbers under the notes for the LH refer to the button numbers, not finger numbers. It is based on a standard eight button LH layout consisting of two rows of four buttons. Buttons are numbered from 1 to 4, where 1 is the nearest to the floor when playing and 4 is nearest the ceiling. Plain numbers refer to the outside row of buttons, numbers in a box refer to the inside row of buttons (i.e. nearest the bellows).

Similarly, as shown in the third photo of your earlier post, the numbering system for the RH side refers again to button numbers, not finger numbers. (how did you think they meant finger numbers when they go up to 11?). The numbering system is for a standard G/C layout with a third button start - i.e. the basic row scales of C and G start on the third button from the chin end. The buttons are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... starting from the chin or ceiling end, going towards floor. Plain numbers refer to the inside C row; numbers in a box refer to the outside G-row.


I'm sorry... I didn't say it clearly... Meant  the one is  "pinkie side - working bottom up on the left hand. And the right hands is index finger down, starting at the top of the instrument and working downward. They go in opposite directions.


Saw later the Lowest to highest notes. I suppose that makes sense - though with chords, it's not as clear.
Melissa
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 08:07:50 PM by Melissa Sinclair »
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2017, 07:45:49 PM »

Several posts back Walleye mentioned Coursera.org and a course The Fundamentals of Music Theory.
I'd just like to say a thank you to him for mentioning this, I started today and already it's cleared some grey areas re theory.
Melissa do take a look but probably best to keep it separate from your study and playing of your instrument at this stage  (:)

Good to know... Lovely there are so many resources!
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2017, 07:47:46 PM »

Hi Melissa.  I have been enjoying reading your posts and the replies given.  18 months ago I too started with the milleret/pignol méthode book.  Found it good, however for me, the tunes seemed to progress in difficulty a bit too quickly - they cover lots of necessary techniques, but I needed to consolidate between lessons. I wanted to spend more time learning and playing easy tunes before moving on to the next stage.
Trad magazine in France publish various music books and I bought the "hors série Accordéon Diatonique volume 1, 106 morceaux, by Jean-Michel Corgeron.  It came with 3cds.  All the tunes have the fingering written and they are graded for difficulty, from one star - easy.  Some lovely tunes in this collection. 
This is a link to the book, I am not sure if the cds are included or need to be ordered separately.  To be honest, I have hardly used the cds, I listen to the tunes played on YouTube.

http://www.librairieorfeo.com/claviers/accordeon/accordeon-diatonique/d-accordeon-diatonique--vol-1-tab-1-1000000011203-v.html

For the bass buttons, I was advised to use ring and middle fingers for c/g and f; middle and index for e/a and g/d.  It works for me; easier to reach the f button and keeps my thumb in a good position for the air button.

Bon courage!

Maggie  :|||:

Thanks! I'll give it a look - as I agree it jumps pretty quickly with some boring, not so related exercises between lessons. Having more practice stuff between would be good.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2017, 08:09:59 PM »

I think it is a misprint in the notated bass and chords in the Second photo - the second no 2 quarter note should be G chord, then G bass on the last quarter of the line.

No, it's not a misprint. The numbers refer to LH button numbers (see my previous reply to Melissa). The music is the first 4 bars of 'Twinkle Little Star' played entirely on the bass (not chord) buttons. It works - try it!

I admit it is slightly confusing to have the chord symbol letters printed above the stave - they are irrelevant in this instance, although an accompanying guitarist (say) would find them useful.

I think he was responding to the chord/bass names in the photo. It says C Bass and c Chord both in and out on the bellows, just in different written octaves.
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playandteach

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2017, 08:10:43 PM »

 I think it's fine to park the book for weeks at a time while you embed the techniques learnt by playing tunes. Or writing your own!
I also generally use the middle and index fingers of the left hand for the top bass and chords, and the ring and middle fingers for the bottom set of buttons. It's strange how the middle finger seems to know its job depending on which chord I'm playing. Totally organic. In very occasional pieces I might use my little finger, but I really have to make sure my hand is squarer to the box, and more through the strap.

Keep going. It's like life, before you know it you'll be looking back - and giving advice to others.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2017, 12:26:50 AM »

No, it's not a misprint. The numbers refer to LH button numbers (see my previous reply to Melissa). The music is the first 4 bars of 'Twinkle Little Star' played entirely on the bass (not chord) buttons. It works - try it!

I admit it is slightly confusing to have the chord symbol letters printed above the stave - they are irrelevant in this instance, although an accompanying guitarist (say) would find them useful.

I think he was responding to the chord/bass names in the photo. It says C Bass and c Chord both in and out on the bellows, just in different written octaves.

The notation in this example is rather idiosyncratic and potentially confusing in that the chords are shown symbolically as just a single note head instead of a two or three note chord. I've never seen another tutor book which uses such an odd system. I suspect the reason for this is that different manufacturers will voice (tune) the chords differently; some chords will be in root position (doh-mi-soh), others might be in 1st inversion (mi-soh-doh') or 2nd inversion (soh-doh'-mi'). There is not any particular consistency between one maker and another.

Unless the LH side is rhythmically complex, there is actually little or no need to notate bass or chords as notes on a stave. Because the notes are fixed in the instrument and hence unalterable, it is normally quite sufficient to indicate a bass note as an upper case letter e.g. 'C' and the chord in lower case e.g. 'c'. This convention is followed in a lot of tutor books and melodeon-specific sheet music.

Here (attached) is an example of a melodeon tune in CADB tablature for G/C melodeon from Bernard Loffet's excellent website resource of tunes in tablature.
P = push (poussé), T = pull (tiré)
RH buttons are numbered from the chin end; plain numbers are on the outside G-row, numbers with an apostrophe are on the inside C-row.
LH bass notes shown in upper case, chords in lower case.
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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2017, 10:51:19 AM »

Unless the LH side is rhythmically complex, there is actually little or no need to notate bass or chords as notes on a stave. Because the notes are fixed in the instrument and hence unalterable, it is normally quite sufficient to indicate a bass note as an upper case letter e.g. 'C' and the chord in lower case e.g. 'c'. This convention is followed in a lot of tutor books and melodeon-specific sheet music.
Although a lot of lead sheets for non folk tunes (especially jazz) use capital letters for chords - so when I see "G", I instinctively think G major chord, not a bass note.  I can see the logic of the melodeon way, but equally to me, "G" is bigger as it has more notes in it, whereas "g" is only a single note.  However, I know this will probably be more confusing for others and is just something I need to deal with!! (:)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:51:21 PM by nigelr »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Several questions (might keep adding more questions to same thread)
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2017, 12:53:59 PM »

Although a lot of lead sheets for non folk tunes (especially jazz) use capital letters for chords - so when I see "G", I instinctively think G major chord, not a bass note.  I can see the logic of the melodeon way, but equally to me, "G" is bigger as it has more notes in it, whereas "g" is only a single note.  However, I know this will probably be more confusing for others and is just something I need to deal with!! (:)

Yes, you're quite right Nigel, in that chord symbols are normally upper case letters. But we're talking about melodeon tablature here, which is slightly different in its approach. I'm sure it is not too confusing really!  (:)
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