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Author Topic: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.  (Read 2757 times)

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gettabettabox

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If it sounds good...you might have a problem? ...very few good musicians like the sound of themselves,
If it sounds ok...maybe...there's a little problem or two?
If it sounds "not good," ...it's likely that you do indeed have a problem.
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gettabettabox

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2017, 01:12:50 AM »

Then....if you're really brave...ask another musician to listen to the recording.
'Tis a painful journey that we embark upon.  :-[
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 01:14:24 AM by gettabettabox »
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Huw Adamson

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2017, 01:42:31 AM »

If it is really bad, you need a better mic (me at the moment.)
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george garside

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2017, 08:35:32 AM »

I find it far harder to play  a tune well in the 'cold' situation of playing into a mike at home than to play in front of a live audience- perhaps something to do with over concentrating rather than getting on with it!

george
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2017, 08:58:16 AM »

I find it far harder to play  a tune well in the 'cold' situation of playing into a mike at home than to play in front of a live audience- perhaps something to do with over concentrating rather than getting on with it!

I fully recognise George's observation.

One of the hardest recording situations I find is when making 'slow tempo' and 'normal tempo' recordings of tunes in advance of teaching workshops, such as Melodeons at Witney or EATMT Melodeons and More. The course participants on these events receive both written music and the sound recording.

Prior to making the recordings, I will have already prepared the sheet music of the tunes, with chords and sometimes suggestions for fingerings. Then, when recording these tunes, I do so very carefully, playing very deliberately, making absolutely sure that I stick to the exact notes and chords on the written music (otherwise someone is bound to complain 'you didn't play it like the written music!'). 

Be assured that when recording in a situation like this, there is great potential for things to go wrong; little slips and fluffed notes that have never happened before, and which can't be allowed to persist on to the final recording. I usually end up doing many takes, and, I have to confess, sometimes cutting and pasting bits of one take on to another :o.  The result is not particularly artistically inspiring, but at least it is an accurate starting point for people to learn the tunes by ear before the workshops.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2017, 09:16:19 AM »

I agree it is a useful learning tool.
I find if I'm trying to record anything for ToTM for instance, it either becomes a marathon where I'm 'nearly' there, or the rcesult is so soul destroying I walk away!
I take huge comfort from George and Steve's posts, realising that vastly experienced players also find it problematic.

George's ' over concentrating' rings true for me.
This sounds bonkers but .... I will sometimes watch sport on the to, currently a Six Nations rugby match and if not totally absorbed, will mute the volume and have a play whilst watching. I invariably play well despite the distraction of the tv. The distraction seems to stop me overconcentrating and just let me play.
'Tis a funny thing this melodeon playing!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Anahata

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2017, 09:20:11 AM »

Be assured that when recording in a situation like this, there is great potential for things to go wrong; little slips and fluffed notes that have never happened before, and which can't be allowed to persist on to the final recording.
Ain't that the truth!

Quote
I usually end up doing many takes, and, I have to confess, sometimes cutting and pasting bits of one take on to another :o.  The result is not particularly artistically inspiring, but at least it is an accurate starting point for people to learn the tunes by ear before the workshops.

It's also completely routine practice in all areas of of professional recording, even of classical music.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that has that much trouble doing the seemingly simple!

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Chris Brimley

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2017, 10:03:07 AM »

I've noticed recently that there are some players of musical instruments (including I may say many of the previous posters on this thread!) who have developed excellent performance skills, and are consistently able to produce a solid performance without hiccups.  Orchestral players seem to have this skill in spades.  I don't - I reach a plateau of learning the tune after many hours of practice, but I'm still likely to trip over in a new way, every time I perform it.

So how is it done?

My hunch is that the problem is that I'm not concentrating 'in the right way' when performing - I like to try to take in the audience still, rather than try to put myself into a mental island.  Or maybe my memory processes aren't disciplined enough?  Or maybe it's something to do with having not yet properly internalised an algorithmic structure of how to play the instrument (difficult with the box because the alternative ways of playing a note can lead to confusion.)  This shows for example if I try to play an unknown piece of music from dots - the difficulties are all to do with selecting the best choice of button and fingering.

I know I'm getting better at it with experience, and strangely enough I don't have much problem when playing in the dance band, but I'm a long way from the faultless skills of those dedicated musical performers one sometimes come across.
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george garside

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2017, 10:16:18 AM »

I agree it is easier , probably because it is more relaxing, playing in or indeed leading a dance band than doing a solo performance. In a 'band'  you unconsciously know you aare in a 'safe' environment in that your 'cock ups' won't stand out - and because of that you don't make any ( or many!)

Also you 'know' that rhythm is king and the punters won't be at all bothered about a slightly different 'arrangement' of the melody!
 
In other words solo you  feel and probably are much more exposed and therefore more 'on edge' than in the comfort zone of a band.

This does not apply or applies much less to professional and semi professional players who do a lot of solo performance.

george
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2017, 11:01:18 AM »

I have often wondered about parallel learning.
We ( I! ) seem to concentrate on the physical aspect of the melodeon - how to finger this piece; what chords to put here; how to get um-pah's going etc. at whatever stage of learning we're at.
I think there is a thing that isn't touched on - what your mind is doing when playing. It is a parallel dimension we don't really touch upon.
i.e. how to relax the mind to allow us to play at our best or near-best.
....and I don't know how to do that apart from distracting myself by looking out the window at the wildlife flitting round the garden or watching something on the tv with the sound off!
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Chris Brimley

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2017, 11:19:43 AM »

My take on it is that the conscious mind is somehow interrupting the subconscious mind's learned patterns by trying to interfere because it's anxious for some reason.  I suspect that good performers have learned to discipline their conscious minds somehow, as with meditation, but I don't know how they're doing it.  It would be interesting to know what these performers are thinking about while they play, and whether they recognise this concept.

I once asked a couple of excellent performers whom I know what their take on performance skills is, and how they do it.  They said the important thing (apart from rehearsing non-stop all day and every day), is musical support - one of them can tell when the other is beginning to lose it, and gives them 'musical support' to get them over it.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2017, 11:40:06 AM »

" My take on it is that the conscious mind is somehow interrupting the subconscious mind's learned patterns by trying to interfere because it's anxious for some reason.  I suspect that good performers have learned to discipline their conscious minds somehow, as with meditation, but I don't know how they're doing it.  It would be interesting to know what these performers are thinking about while they play, and whether they recognise this concept...."

Yes I think that's the essence of my comment - How do they do it?
After all my time on here I don't think this has ever really been explored.
I can understand the relationship within a band or duo, and recognise the 'group support' feeling, even from  dancing the morris at prestigious events. The group reinforcement is definitely there. I have felt that often.
....but solo performers, what is going on there?
Thanks Chris for clarifying my thoughts
cheers
Q

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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

nigelr

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2017, 11:41:06 AM »

I read an interesting book a while ago called "The Inner Game Of Music" which looks at the process of performance in a similar way to sports science.  It covers theory and techniques of coping with the "outer" game, ie the mechanics of a particularly difficult fingering or passage versus the "inner" game of concentration, nervousness and self doubt.  Not that I have any delusions of competence when it comes to performance, but I found it really informative, if only to understand more about how we manage to get in the way of and self-sabotage our own efforts!
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Theo

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2017, 11:43:45 AM »

I have often wondered about parallel learning.
We ( I! ) seem to concentrate on the physical aspect of the melodeon - how to finger this piece; what chords to put here; how to get um-pah's going etc. at whatever stage of learning we're at.


Eventually you get past that stage to a place where you don't have to think about any of the above, most of the mechanical processes become automatic, then you can feel the music and how to play expressively without having to consciously think about it. There is only one way to get there and that is to do sufficient playing.  It is similar to any other learned skills.  Driving a car for example.  To change gear experience drivers do not consciously think: hand on gear stick, release accelerator, depress clutch, move gear stick up, to the right and up again, release clutch, press accelerator.  You don't go through all that conscious processing because you have learned it and you just do it on a sort of autopilot.
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george garside

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2017, 12:27:00 PM »

If I attempt to think of what notes to play  - on what button - in which bellows direction - with what bass - dynamics - phrasing etc etc I make a john halls of it!- guaranteed!

I visualise playing as having similarities to humming or whistling or singing.  You 'think' the tune  and the instructions as to what to do when and where are aautomatically sent down the arm to the fingers etc, in much the same way as they are to the gob for singing, humming or whistling.

I play mainly by ear and can't reed music fast enough for eg reels and jigs although I am ok at waltz speed.  However I think the process I have just outlined is probably much the same for good readers in that the visual input to the brain is swiftly processed and turned into down the arm signals as in 'by ear playing'

The key is to become absolutely familier and at ease with the instrument  so you have the manual dexterity and navigational ability to comply with the messages coming down the arm from the processor/brain.

Anyway for what its worth thats the way I think it works for me!

george
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Bryson

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2017, 12:31:22 PM »

When playing I attempt to reach a state where the conscious mind is watchful, deciding e.g. to use certain dynamics and the subconscious "automaton" :) gets on with playing the tune. Finding the right balance is the trick! Another example is when learning a complicated run. First practising the notes of the run until almost automatic then refocussing on the rhythm of the run leaving the fingers to play "without the interference of thought".
I find that I make much more progress when I practice in my garden. I'll play but my conscious mind has something to divert it from interfering too much - watching the birds or other animals, deciding what to do next in the garden or just the feeling awe at the three fantastic oak trees that surround the garden.

My only public performances are for ceilidhs here in Berlin - Berlin Ceilidh Band - as I lead the band my conscious brain has lots of things to be getting on with e.g. tempo - watch the dancers etc. etc. I make mistakes at every ceilidh - mess up a run or whatever - but nobody except yourself will notice with 7 other musicians, a 120 dancers and callers with microphones contributing to the spectrum of sounds :)

cheers
Bryson
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2017, 12:59:08 PM »

Theo: Yes I can understand that you go through a stage into automatic playing.
Perhaps that's what I do when I'm not concentrating too hard, and those times are getting more and more.
It's more when I want to get it right - for the recording's sake, though I am aware that the odd 'typo' does nothing much to detract from an otherwise good  recording
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Winston Smith

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2017, 01:07:45 PM »

Here speaks the man who's played in public twice!

I must fully concur with Theo and his driving (of which I have a huge and varied experience) allegory, and then I have to also applaud the venerable Mr Garside for his "similarities to humming or whistling or singing". My "vast" playing experience has taught me these truths, if nothing else!

My first public performance was about three weeks after I started with the melodeon (August, the year before last) and I was, rightly, terrified; especially after being a lone (in private) English concertina player for over 40 years! I had learnt a short medley of four easy tunes and had them off quite well, but when it came to it, I only managed to get one out, and that only once. Terror being the problem.

The second time, was busking outside our local Tesco at Christmas gone. What a difference! Carols! I'd been singing them for the past 50 years, and knew the tunes inside out, and I wasn't playing to a "knowledgeable" audience, either, just Joe Public and his wife. All I was doing was enjoying myself. I didn't give the playing a second thought, and I believe that that set circumstances made all the difference in the world. Not that I claim (then or now) to be a proficient player, but I was playing up to my limited abilities and it sounded OK, which is what matters at the "end of the day".
Being on "autopilot" whilst enjoying oneself, that's the trick as far as I'm concerned.

Mind, when I have my camera in front of me, it's still a different matter!
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Mike Carney

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2017, 01:48:49 PM »


Be assured that when recording in a situation like this, there is great potential for things to go wrong; little slips and fluffed notes that have never happened before, and which can't be allowed to persist on to the final recording. I usually end up doing many takes, and, I have to confess, sometimes cutting and pasting bits of one take on to another :o.
:o
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911377brian

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Re: Try recording yourself, put down your melodeon and actively listen.
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2017, 02:01:06 PM »

Got a neighbour to record me playing the mighty Herfeld six stopper and post it on Melnet for me recently. Won't be doing that again. Deeply embarrassed, I gave myself 10/10 for enthusiasm and 2/10 for skill.  :||: :|bl :|bl :|bl
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